The Big Three have fallen like a house of cards.

The UAW’s historic Stand Up strike has come to an end—for now, at least. After forty-four days on the picket line, the Auto Workers have reached tentative agreements with each of the Big Three automakers. GM was the last domino to fall on Saturday, October 30, just days after Ford and then Stellantis acquiesced to their own tentative deals.

50,000 strikers have returned to work, and all 146,000 Big Three union members are now voting on the contracts. While it’s up to the workers to decide whether the deals are adequate, one thing is already clear: the UAW has turned the tide on decades of concessionary bargaining.

For this episode, we invited Barry Eidlin back on the show to unpack the gains and wider implications of the UAW’s tentative agreements. Barry Eidlin is an associate professor of sociology at McGill University, who studies class, labor, politics and social movements. He is the author of Labor and the Class Idea in the United States and Canada, published by Cambridge University Press in 2018.

We explore why the agreements may represent a shift toward a “new kind of unionism,” how the UAW’s prospects for organizing the rest of the auto industry may have changed, and what listeners should be following in the rest of the labor movement.

Additional links/info:

Read Barry Eidlin’s article on the Belvedere plant in Jacobin.

Support the show at Patreon.com/upsurgepod.
Follow us on Twitter @upsurgepod, Facebook, The Upsurge, and YouTube @upsurgepod.

Hosted by Teddy Ostrow
Edited by Teddy Ostrow
Produced by NYGP & Ruby Walsh, in partnership with In These Times & The Real News
Music by Casey Gallagher
Cover art by Devlin Claro Resetar

TRANSCRIPT

Barry Eidlin: It really speaks to Shawn Fain and the new UAW administration’s commitment to a more class struggle vision of unionism, right? Where that’s really the story of the UAW contract campaign and the Stand-Up-Strike that ensued is one of developing a much more explicit framework of class warfare and that we are fighting not just for auto workers, but for the entire working class, that we are engaged in a class struggle with our billionaire class enemies, drawing these clear dividing lines and mobilizing workers around this broader vision.

Teddy Ostrow: Hello my name is Teddy Ostrow. Welcome to The Upsurge, a podcast about the future of the American labor movement.

This podcast covers the renewed militancy of the United Auto Workers, the legendary union that, for the first time in its history this year, struck each of the Big Three automakers at once. That’s Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis.

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

And quick reminder: This is a listener-supported podcast. So please, if you want it to keep going, head on over to patreon.com/upsurgepod and become a monthly contributor today. You can find a link in the description. We can’t do this without you. 

The Big Three have fallen like a house of cards.

As of last weekend, the UAW’s historic Stand-Up-Strike came to an end. After forty-four days on the picket line, the Auto Workers have now reached tentative agreements with each of the Big Three automakers. GM was the last domino to fall on Saturday, October 28, just days after Ford and then Stellantis acquiesced to their own tentative deals.

50,000 strikers have returned to work, and all 146,000 Big 3 union members are voting on the contracts, which are expected to pass. By the time this episode is published, some of them may have already been ratified.

Now, while it’s up to the workers to decide whether the agreements are good enough for them, it’s already pretty clear: the UAW has turned the tides on decades of concessionary bargaining. Indeed, when the union declared that record automaker profits warrant record labor contracts, they were not kidding.

The gains are tremendous. I can’t list all of them in this introduction, and we have an excellent guest to discuss the TAs, but for a taste: we’re talking about double or even triple digit raises across four and a half years; the reinstatement of cost-of-living allowances, or COLA; the abolition of wage tiers across the Big Three; the right to strike over plant closures and other investment decisions; a clear and shortened pathway for temps to be made permanent; and the inclusion of some electric vehicle workers in the union’s master contracts with the Big Three.

Not everything the union had demanded was won. Workers did not win a 32-hour work week, for example. Nor were benefit tiers abolished across the companies, meaning tier two workers will still lack defined benefit pensions and retiree medical benefits. The union has not minced words, however. It’s clear that the intent in future contracts is the gaps once and for all. Given what they’ve achieved in this round, one might be foolish to doubt them.

Beyond the specific contract items, the Stand-Up-Strike has also been just deeply inspiring. For other workers, for union members, and for all working class people, who saw the autoworkers fight and win, with a leadership openly declaring war on corporations, who have been stealing the wealth that we create for as long as we can remember.

There is a lot to unpack about the content of these agreements and their wider implications, so I am thrilled that we got Barry Eidlin back on the show to help us. 

Barry Eidlin is an associate professor of sociology at McGill University, who studies class, labor, politics and social movements. The author of Labor and the Class Idea in the United States and Canada, published by Cambridge University Press in 2018, Barry is an expert on the decline of labor unions in North America. But he also has got his finger on the pulse of its potential resurgence. 

That’s why I interviewed him on Episode 5 back in April to help contextualize the contract campaign of the UPS Teamsters earlier this year. And it’s why now I thought he would be the perfect guest to unpack what these tentative deals mean for the Big 3 auto workers, the UAW, the wider mostly non-union auto industry, and of course, the broader labor movement.

Now, before we get to the interview I just wanted to inform listeners that after this episode The Upsurge will be taking a short hiatus from our normal schedule. Having produced regular episodes every two or three weeks for nearly a year now, we are going to take a moment to break and develop the next moves for our podcast. We intend to update listeners and especially Patreon supporters in due time. 

Alright, on to my interview with Barry Eidlin. 

Barry Eidlin. Welcome back to The Upsurge. 

Barry Eidlin: Great to be here, Teddy. Thanks for having me back. 

Teddy Ostrow: Thank you. There’s a lot to discuss, but first I want to just give you an open ended question—give us your broadest assessment right now of the UAW’s tentative agreements. By the time this posts, it’s possible some of them may have been ratified. What do these deals really mean for the auto workers in 2023? 

Barry Eidlin: Yeah, I think, I mean, the first thing to say, obviously, is that these deals are in the members hands now and it’s the decision of the members whether or not to ratify them.

And so I have no position on how members should vote on these contracts because that’s not my call. But compared to what we’ve seen in recent years, this is a major step forward, and union leaders will often talk in terms of transformative victories and what have you. But if you look at what they’ve won here, I think that you can make the case that this is a transformative victory for the United Auto Workers.

And regardless of the vote outcomes, this is an incredibly solid base to build on. They’ve basically made huge steps forward in undoing four decades of concessionary bargaining where they’ve won these contracts that really make some headway in getting rid of tiers. So the multi-tier employment where you have different classifications of workers doing the same job, but getting paid different rates, you have basically the elimination of the perma-temp category, so these workers were classified as temporary, but then work for years. There still are temp workers, but they’re capped at nine months. You have these sizable, across the board wage increases that are much more targeted towards the bottom end of the pay scale.

Then I think we’re going to be talking about it later, but you know, these sort of, not restrictions, but these, interventions in companies investment decisions—so basically sort of expanding the vision of the union. And I think more broadly, what we’ve seen, this is the first time that the UAW ran a contract campaign, and really mobilized members in the lead up to the contract negotiations. So you have a membership that’s just much more engaged now, and, in the event that there’s a sizable no vote, we don’t know how that’s going to turn out, but it will be a result of that mobilization, right?

It’s not that the contract is bad or concessionary, it certainly is not, but it will be because members have been mobilized and their expectations have been raised. And so I think that we’ve really made some serious steps towards transforming what had become a corrupt, moribund union into something that is now, the UAW is now sort of really back out front, as they themselves say, leading the class war. 

Teddy Ostrow: I think there are definitely also—we had you on last time to talk about the Teamsters—some pretty similar, but also different echoes about the contract campaign there and the gains that were made. I want to talk about one specific win that you wrote about, one of the biggest wins we saw was at Stellantis. They agreed to reopen and quote unquote, idled, but really closed auto plant in Belvedere, Illinois. This was one of the dozens of plants closed over the past 20 years by the Big 3. And the union also won 5, 000 more jobs at the company, which is remarkable because Stellantis had gone into negotiations planning to actually shed 5, 000 jobs. So this is a really major turnaround and … you did write a great piece in Jacobin Magazine about why this is so important for the workers of Belvedere in their own right, but also more broadly, how this may represent the beginning of some sort of shift, perhaps, in the way the union conceives of its own role in the economy. Can you lay that argument out for us? 

Barry Eidlin: Yeah. So I think what we need to consider is that, you know, over the past 75 years, basically since World War II, there’s been this shift in labor’s priorities, and in the UAW, the United Auto Workers in particular, the president in the 1940s through 1970, when he died, was this guy, Walter Reuther. 

He assumed the presidency in 1947, but he was the General Motors director in 1945. He certainly had his flaws as a labor leader, but he did not lack in vision, and in sort of having a broader political perspective in his view of what labor’s role was. And he really tried to advance a position where labor was going to play a role, not just in securing better jobs and working conditions for workers, but in actually shaping the economy and the polity, that they would have a key role in doing that. And so in the 1945 negotiations, he had this whole plan that the UAW called Purchasing Power for Prosperity. This was in the aftermath of World War II, where there was massive productivity gains to fight the war, massive inflation, but also, wage restraint, there were price controls too, there was wage and price restraints during the war, and so workers had been worked to death and had been producing like crazy to win the war effort.

And then people were looking to the after war period and were really concerned that they were going to get left behind in the midst of what it was anticipated to be, this huge inflationary surge. And so what Reuther proposed was Purchasing Power for Prosperity, which was a 30% across the board wage hike with no increase in car prices.

So it was basically forcing, trying to force the companies to transfer profits from capital to labor. And this resulted in a 118 day strike against General Motors that won some significant wage increases, but ultimately lost on this Purchasing Power plan. And then as a result, that was the beginning of this sort of like clawback of labor’s momentum.

That was when you saw the Republicans assume a majority in the Congress in 1946, they passed the Taft Hartley Act over President Truman’s veto in 1947. And you get to 1950 negotiations and it’s a much different scenario. So Reuther’s vision is really hemmed in by that point. And so you basically end up with a deal that’s called the Treaty of Detroit, where Reuther was able to get the company to invest heavily in its workforce in the sense of guaranteeing basically widespread job security, pensions, regular wage increases tied to the cost of living, but in exchange gave up that broader vision. They gave up control over the shop floor and gave up control over management investment decisions. Then that Treaty of Detroit pattern basically set the pattern for the post war period where labor basically abandoned its broader vision of trying to play a broader role in shaping the economy.

And while this is just one plant and one union and one contract, what we’re seeing with the move to use the collective bargaining process to force the company to reopen a plant, what I was saying in the article is that this marks an effort to reassert that broader vision for labor and trying to infringe on what has been management’s sovereign right to manage, that we will take care of wages and benefits for workers and some basic grievance procedures and stuff like that, but we relinquish any claims on being able to have a say in investment decisions. And  so this is a step away from that and back towards the broader vision. And it’s important to recognize that these plant closings have a devastating impact on communities, right? The company justifies these plant closures by referencing their company’s profitability and other opportunities for investment and it’s sort of this dollars and cents, bottom line calculation with absolutely no consideration, or very little consideration for the path of destruction that these plant closures leave in their wake, or these entire communities that are left devastated, these families that are torn apart. And so I think that reshaping the narrative around who has a right to intervene in company investment decisions, do the people who are going to be directly affected by these company investment decisions have a right to have a say in those investment decisions? And I think that kind of question is now back on the table in a way that it hasn’t been in many decades. 

Teddy Ostrow: Another element of the tentative agreements that may be representative of a greater shift in the union is that the contracts, if they’re ratified, will now expire on May 1st or the day before, which is the international holiday of May Day.

And one could say this is perhaps symbolic, but it also is quite strategic, I think. UAW President Shawn Fain has called on other unions to basically line their own contracts up to expire on that day as well. Can you give us a very brief crash course on the importance of May Day, basically so you can help us understand why the union did this, and what it says about the kind of unionism the UAW is trying to influence across the labor movement?

Barry Eidlin: Yeah, I mean, there are practical considerations, just that having the contract expire at the end of April means that workers are on the picket lines in the spring and summer instead of in the wintertime, which is non trivial when you’re talking about a protracted strike situation.

But it’s really the symbolism that’s important here. And I don’t mean symbolic in the sense of meaningless. I mean symbolic in the sense that it means something really important. So May Day obviously is the international workers’ holiday. Some people sort of say that it’s the real Labor Day and that the one in September is the fake Labor Day, but I think we should just have two Labor Days and we should fight for more Labor Days, as far as I’m concerned.

But May 1st is considered this worker’s holiday. It is to honor the martyrs of the Haymarket massacre on May 4th, 1886. I’m not quite sure what the history is of why it shifted from May 4th to May 1st, maybe it has to do with the Pagan holidays of May Day in Europe, I’m not quite sure.

But in any case. In 1887, some members of the Socialist International decided that they were going to designate May 1st as a workers’ holiday, and it sort of held that position ever since. And there’s been efforts in the U.S. to sort of recapture May Day, even though it originated in the U.S. has never really been as big of a holiday that it is in other parts of the world. So there have been efforts recently to recapture that. 

But what’s important here with the UAW aligning their contracts to expire on April 30th, with the strike beyond May 1st and inviting other unions to do the same, to align their contracts, it really speaks to Shawn Fain and the new UAW administration’s commitment to a more class struggle vision of unionism, right? That’s really the story of the UAW contract campaign and the Stand-Up-Strike that ensued, is one of developing a much more explicit framework of class warfare, and that we are fighting not just for auto workers, but for the entire working class, that we are engaged in a class struggle with our billionaire class enemies, drawing these clear dividing lines and mobilizing workers around this broader vision.

And so aligning the contracts to expire the day before May Day and then inviting others to do so is a concrete embodiment of that broader vision, right? It sort of is a way to turn that vision into reality because it creates the structural preconditions for having a mass strike on May 1st of 2028 in a way that is, I mean, you will often hear small groups on the left talk about calling for a general strike and it’s sort of in the realm of fantasy, this actually brings that into the realm of a very real possibility, especially if we see other other unions follow suit. 

Teddy Ostrow: Right. I remember when I first heard that they are extending the collective bargaining agreement length, before I understood why I was like, oh, usually you want a shorter contract sometimes. And then I understood. No, this is a way to sort of align the labor movement together. It’s another one of those first steps towards influencing a change in the broader movement for the wider working class in the United States. 

Barry Eidlin: Yeah, I think so basically. And, and then you ask, well, why is it four and a half years instead of three and a half years?

And I think that what you’re getting at there is really important to keep in mind is that there’s some groundwork that needs to be laid in the next few years, both to get other unions on board with this vision, but also as Fain discussed when they were announcing the contract details to do a lot more to reorganize the U.S. auto industry in the next few years so that the next round of negotiations is fundamentally different. 

Teddy Ostrow: That’s a perfect transition to my next question, which is, we’ve talked a bit about this on the podcast, but the Big Three contract fight this year has always been about more than just the Big Three. It’s also about how this sets the UAW up for an existential task, that is, organizing the non union auto giants so that we’re talking about a Big Five, a Big Six. Like Toyota, Hyundai, Volkswagen, Nissan, and of course, Tesla. We saw reporting from Labor Notes that’s now been reported elsewhere as well that Toyota responded to the TAs by raising workers wages and also shortening the progression to top rate. And this was presumably to sort of blunt any desire by workers to unionize their workplace. This is like a common trend that we see across different workplaces and sectors. But also we saw reports from Bloomberg that workers at the flagship Tesla plant in Fremont, California have formed an organizing committee with the UAW.

So I’d like to ask, maybe give us a little bit of background. You know, what is the UAW’s recent track record in organizing these mostly, but not all, foreign auto plants? How might these TAs have changed the environment for the union’s organizing potential? And then also, of course, maybe you should explain to listeners why their ears should perk up a little bit, when they hear that the UAW has set its sights on that Fremont Tesla plant.

Barry Eidlin: Yeah, so I think that what Toyota did is what these so called transplants, these quote unquote “foreign owned companies”, and I say that because, nowadays, the idea that the Big Three are American auto companies is questionable at best. Especially Stellantis, which is headquartered in Amsterdam, I think. I forget. Not the U. S.

But the UAW has failed to organize transplants ever since they started arriving in the U.S. And one of the ways that the transplants have fended off unionization is by matching some of the basic wage packages, at least, of the UAW, and so they’ll give them similar wages.

They won’t get the pensions and the healthcare and stuff like that, but the basic wage rates would be the same and that would often be enough to sort of placate people. And in recent years, the transplants just haven’t had to do much of that because the UAW was giving concessions.

So UAW plants were in many cases, workers in those plants were doing worse than people in the transplant. So there’s no organizing threat there, right? Because why would you join a union to bargain concessions for you, right? There’s just no logical reason for it.

So what Toyota is doing now is sort of a return to past practice in that sense. But I think what we need to be thinking about now is that, now there is a real threat of more organizing and trying to sort of change the balance of power. And I would be much more focused on the sort of bigger automakers like Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, stuff like that, rather than focusing on the Tesla plant, even though, you know, I did tweet out that, I think that it would be hard to think of a single organizing victory at a single shop that would have the kind of symbolic meaning and substantive meaning of organizing Tesla.

The problem there is, in academia, if you’re sort of in labor relations and you take a collective bargaining class, there’s this thing called BATNA, which is the Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement. And the problem is that in the case of Tesla, Elon Musk’s BATNA is destroying the company.

He would rather have Tesla disappear than be a union company. He would rather just throw it down the garbage disposal. And if that’s the employer’s BATNA, you’re not going to be able to organize the plant, especially when you’ve got a billionaire with the resources, you know, so as much as I would love to see that, I don’t think that’s the wisest use of the UAW’s resources at this point, whereas you do have these other plants to organize that are very much invested in staying in the U.S. and want to capture market share in the U.S. 

One of the things that’s important to keep in mind for your listeners here in this broader context is that despite all the rhetoric of deindustrialization that we’ve heard over the past several decades, the auto industry in the U.S. is still quite vibrant. As I wrote in that Belvedere article, the proportion of the workforce employed in auto, in 2022 is basically the same as in 1983. So we haven’t had auto jobs disappear in the U. S. in the way that we’ve seen, like steel jobs disappear, or textile jobs, for example. Auto jobs, we still make a lot of autos and auto parts in the U.S., it’s just that the sector has been de-unionized. So while the percentage of employment stayed roughly constant over the past 40 years, unionization rate dropped from roughly 60% to 16%.

And that’s because of these transplants that are all non union, the Big Three automakers spinning off their parts plants and others into these non union subsidiaries, all these layers of subcontracting and so on. So the story in auto is not de-industrialization, it’s de-unionization.

And that’s a very different challenge that’s much more tractable. It’s much more, it’s a much more of a doable challenge for the UAW. That’s not to say that it’s a walk in the park by any stretch. Organizing these plants is a huge challenge. But these plants are here. The work’s not all going to Mexico and China like the deindustrialization rhetoric would hold. These companies are in many cases reshoring, they’re bringing more work into the U.S. So that creates this target-rich environment for organizing, basically, but the job is to essentially re-organize the US auto industry, and that’s going to be essential to any long term strategy for maintaining the UAW as a going concern in the coming decades. 

Teddy Ostrow: To close out, I want to ask you a somewhat tangential question. You and I have discussed on this show two very important union battles, many of us have considered them to be of this earth shattering importance for the labor movement—the UPS Teamsters and the Big Three auto workers, and you’ve laid out those cases very well.

I’m curious though, moving into 2024 in the United States, where are your eyes and ears moving next? Is it another shiny contract expiration? Is it another sector of the labor force? Should we even be thinking about it in this way? Is it new organizing? Just what should listeners be following in the world of labor, after the UAW contracts are eventually ratified?

Barry Eidlin: Yeah, that’s a really good question. One of the things that’s kind of exciting, but also confusing about the time we’re living in is that it’s hard to know where it’s going to pop off next, precisely because we’ve seen these strikes and contract fights in all different sectors across the economy, right?

It’s not like in 2018 where it was like education workers and you have the red state revolt, which everybody got excited about, but it was really just contained to the education sector for the most part. Nowadays, we’re seeing healthcare, we’re seeing Hollywood, we’re seeing grocery. We’re seeing longshore, you know, we’re seeing academic workers. It’s really kind of all over the place. So there is this kind of contagion effect, and it’s hard to know where that’s going to build up to. There isn’t the same kind, I mean, certainly on the scale of UPS and the Big Three next year, I don’t see anything on that scale where we can just sort of pinpoint that and say, okay, we need to watch that contract.

But there’s going to, there’s definitely going to be part two of the Hollywood battles, so this year it’s been the actors and writers and the next year it’s going to be the people below the line, people who do all the grunt work that makes Hollywood work, who are represented by IATSE. And the Teamsters are going up for their negotiations and I suspect that’s going to be a pretty significant, throw down and then it’s also going to be spiced up by the fact that you’ve got Teamster Western region vice president and motion picture director, Lindsay Doherty, leading the negotiations for the Teamsters.

So that’s certainly going to be something to watch, both for the substantive importance and the entertainment value, And I think, I believe the postal workers are going to be coming up fairly soon, and, we’ve got Mark Diamonstein in charge of the postal workers there.

I think that’s going to be a big fight. So, there are a couple of those, but I think the big thing is just to see whether the momentum and energy that we’ve seen from hot labor summer turn into fiery labor fall. I keep on trying to make that happen. It’s happened to me. We’ll need to come up with a winter one, you know, winter is coming, to see whether that keeps on building. Right. And I think, you know, that’s the question that people always ask me is, like, is, are we in an upsurge? And I keep on saying, there’s a bit of an uptick. But what I will say is that, if we are, if we’re sort of sitting here a year, two years from now in a bona fide upsurge of the type that we saw in the sixties and seventies or in the thirties and forties, that the key necessary elements for that upsurge were taking shape in the time that we’re in right now, and the fundamental condition for the upsurge, if it happens, is this layer of worker led organizing, and we see that taking shape, the headline grabbing stuff at Starbucks and Amazon.

But the organizing that led to the contracts with the teamsters in the UAW was only possible because of the rank-and-file organizing of Teamsters for a Democratic Union and Unite All Workers for Democracy. These rank-and-file movements, you have these workers in other sectors who are rejecting their contracts and pushing for something better.

So there’s a whole layer of independent worker-led organizing that is essential for it because you can’t sort of staff your way up to a labor upsurge. And so that layer of worker-led organizing has to expand and grow if we want to see what we have now actually develop into something more like a true upsurge.

So that’s really the thing that I’m going to be watching more than anything. 

Nearly five weeks into the UAW’s historic Stand Up Strike, there are just under 34,000 Big Three auto workers on strike in assembly plants and parts depots across the country. The latest escalation came on Wednesday, Oct. 11, when the union called on 8,700 Ford workers at the Kentucky Truck Plant in Louisville, Kentucky, to walk off the job. 

For this episode, we’re bringing you a UAW strike update. You’ll hear from two guests: Chris Budnick and Lisa Xu. Chris is a striking Ford worker at the Kentucky Truck Plant and the co-chair of Unite All Workers for Democracy (UAWD). Lisa is an organizer at the labor movement publication and organizing project Labor Notes, and she was previously an organizer with UAWD. 

Chris and Lisa bring us up to speed on the strike escalations, discuss how non-striking auto workers are participating in the Stand Up, and unpack the massive concession made by General Motors last week – the folding of their battery plants into the UAW’s master contract with the company. 

Finally, we take a step back to reflect on the Stand Up Strike overall. We take stock not just on what was won contractually so far, but also on how far the union has come in the past year, and where it’s going. 

Additional links/info

Support the show at Patreon.com/upsurgepod.
Follow us on Twitter @upsurgepod, Facebook, The Upsurge, and YouTube @upsurgepod.
Hear Teddy talk about the UAW strike on The Response podcast.

Hosted by Teddy Ostrow
Edited by Teddy Ostrow
Produced by NYGP & Ruby Walsh, in partnership with In These Times & The Real News
Music by Casey Gallagher
Cover art by Devlin Claro Resetar

Transcript

The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.

Lisa Xu: class warfare has been going on for a long time. It’s just that the working class needs to waken to the fact that, you know, capital has been waging class warfare against the working class, for decades and has sort of quelled, I think, a lot of the militancy and, you know, the ability to fight back.

And, you know, I think what’s been so amazing is seeing, everyone, including workers around the world kind of taking note of what’s happening in the UAW and seeing, you know, this Such, such an important historical union, kind of sees the reins and say, you know, this is not a one sided class, struggle.

Chris Budnick: it’s a bottom up approach at this point. now that we have a good start of, we have good leadership at the top to encourage us and engage us and educate us to do so. and from the bottom up and that’s where, you know, all these, you know, building.

militancy in the union, to constantly fight, a lot harder, with the, with these companies and, you know, and the hope is that it’s going to really build, our union and the labor movement. To, to heights we’ve never seen before

Teddy: Hello my name is Teddy Ostrow. Welcome to the Upsurge, a podcast about the future of the American labor movement.

This podcast covers the renewed militancy of the United Auto Workers, the legendary union that right now, for the first time in its history, is striking each of the Big Three automakers at once. That’s Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis, the owner of Chrysler, Jeep and other brands. 

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

And quick reminder: This is a listener-supported podcast. So please, if you want it to keep going, head on over to patreon.com/upsurgepod and become a monthly contributor today. You can find a link in the description. We can’t do this without you. 

A lot has happened since our last episode, and there’s a lot more that could happen before this strike is done. So, in this episode we’re bringing you a UAW Stand Up Strike update with two excellent guests. 

It’s not completely necessary, but if you haven’t already, check out Episode 14 and 15 for more context on the UAW strike. There’s definitely a little more assumed knowledge in this episode.

We’re going to speed along to the interview, but just a quick set up: Right now, there are just under 34,000 Big Three Auto Workers on strike in assembly plants and parts depots across the country. 

The latest escalation came on Wednesday, October 11. The UAW called on 8,700 Ford workers at the highly profitable Kentucky Truck Plant in Louisville, Kentucky, to walk off the job. 

Reportedly, this came after Ford refused to improve its economic offer in bargaining. Rather than waiting till Friday to announce the new strike targets, as they’ve done in recent, UAW President Shawn Fain and the international initiated what appears to be a new phase of the Stand Up Strike. Escalations, or new calls for standing up, won’t be relegated to a routine Friday announcement, but rather, they could come at any time. 

Anyway, I talked about this and more with my two guests, Chris Budnick and Lisa Xu. 

Chris Budnick is a Ford worker of 11 years. He’s originally from Michigan but has moved around and ended up at the now-on-strike Kentucky Truck Plant. He’s also co-chair of the union reform caucus Unite All Workers for Democracy, or UAWD. Lisa Xu is an organizer at the labor movement publication and organizing project Labor Notes, and she was previously an organizer with UAWD. 

Chris and Lisa helped bring us up to date as far as the strike escalations, but we also talked about how non-striking Auto Workers are participating in the Stand Up, as well as the truly huge concession made by GM related to its electrical vehicle operations. After the UAW threatened to strike its most profitable facility in Arlington, Texas, General Motors conceded to folding its battery plants, which are legally separate from its other operations, into the UAW’s master contract with the company. We’ll talk about why that is such a big deal. 

And finally, we also took a step back to reflect on the Stand Up Strike overall. We took stock not just on what was won contractually, but also on how far the union has come in the past year, and where its going. 

Teddy Ostrow: [00:00:00] Chris Budnick and Lisa Xu welcome to the upsurge. 

Lisa Xu: Thanks

Lisa Xu: for having 

Chris Budnick: us. Yeah. Thank you for having us. 

Teddy Ostrow: To begin. Can you guys just tell listeners a little bit about yourselves? Chris, we can start with you. Yeah. Um, 

Chris Budnick: well, I’ve, been a, uh, UAW member for 11 years come this November. I’ve been at 4 different plants originally from Michigan and, uh, I’ve been working for Ford, but I finally settled down here in, Louisville, Kentucky at Local 862, at the Kentucky Truck Plant and, I’m also.

Chris Budnick: Very active and other areas, with, unite all workers for democracy, co chair on that steering committee that. So that’s just a little bit about me. 

Lisa Xu: so, I was also a UAW member, I was a member of the Harvard Graduate Students Union and organized for the local for a few years, and then [00:01:00] I was hired as the first staff organizer for UAWD, which is where I got to know Chris, and now I work for Labor Notes as an organizer.

Teddy Ostrow: Great, thank you guys so much for those introductions. so the last episode of the upsurge left off shortly after the 38 GM and Stellantis parts distribution centers, or PDCs as they’re called, the 38 of them across the United States were called to stand up, since then, 3 more facilities, I believe, have joined the stand up strike.

Teddy Ostrow: And I like to start with the most recent escalation and then we can go backwards and work our way to the present. So, Chris, I have a kind of packed question for you. we’re speaking on October 16th. As of October 11th, you have been on strike at your facility, Ford’s Kentucky truck plant. Can you give us, a 360 of that plant perhaps and explain why it’s so significant you guys have joined the fight?

Teddy Ostrow: [00:02:00] what this means is an escalation. Maybe we can start with the basics of the plant. For example, you know. What do you even build? And then we can move on to, you know, why do you think the UAW chose to strike the facility? What’s so significant about it to Ford?

Teddy Ostrow: And also, please tell us about the feelings, the energy of the membership of you in the plant leading up to the strike, as well as, you know. What it was like when it was finally called and how it’s been on the picket line since they went up. 

Chris Budnick: Yeah, sure. that, that is a lot of questions. but yeah, absolutely.

Chris Budnick: yeah. KTP, you know, once I hired in, you know, they always, the Ford always, you know, bragged about how much, Money they make, So I’ll get into a little bit of that, but, Kentucky truck plant, they make the, F series super duty. That’s like the F two 50 to that five 50, along with the Ford expedition and the Ford navigator.

Chris Budnick: the KTP plant [00:03:00] produces a truck every 37 seconds. And one of those things they’ve told us just in orientation when we first got there. Is that, well, back in 2016, they said $15,000 in profit per vehicle that’s produced coming out of there. And now it’s gone up to like at least $18,000 per truck. And that’s every 37 seconds.

Chris Budnick: and they also brag about, how the Kentucky truck plant makes over half of Ford’s revenue, in North America. Which is pretty huge, but yeah, obviously we can see how much this plant is important to forward to keep it running, and to be able to use that in an escalating strike.

Chris Budnick: is a hell of a tool to use. so, you know, leading up to the strike, I myself was, doing 10 minute meetings with folks in my department. you know, like I was running four different meetings at one point for a few weeks, like with skilled trades and the [00:04:00] forklift drivers, repair guys. and then just the regular production, just to talk about what are we fighting for, and give them updates, what’s going on and get the communication started even from my local to them, by using our local UAW 862 app we have and signing up, signing those pledge cards.

Chris Budnick: you know, just really just educating and informing folks and just, and even just have a place to talk about something right before our shift starts. And I typically did it on a Wednesday, and to promote, to do a red shirt Wednesday in solidarity, to build up and to try to put as much pressure as we could on the company and on management, leading up.

Chris Budnick: To the deadline of the, of the contract, then my local also, and I helped a little bit with this with, doing practice pickets. We held 2 practice pickets and, we did a rally, after the [00:05:00] deadline. And, you know, and I’ll tell you you could see it just in the 10 minute meetings I did, even though they’re kind of small.

Chris Budnick: I mean, it. It’d be, I would have an attendance of, uh, maybe anywhere from 12 to 26, members, each meeting, you know, so leading up to it, you know, I was getting folks to chant, you know, who are we, UAW, And everyone was super excited once the deadline hit and then once we found out we’re doing this strategic, stand up strike where only certain plants are going out, you know, a lot of energy kind of dropped a little.

Chris Budnick: But I continued the 10 minute meetings and tried to keep, folks, you know, energized about it. and also educated on, I wasn’t even educated on it. I had to listen to that video UAW put out by the lawyer about how to work on an expired contract. What does this even mean? So it’s a lot of new stuff we’re learning.

Chris Budnick: as we’re going, and, I tell you,we’ve [00:06:00] only been able to escalate this contract campaign three months before the deadline and that is a very short amount of time and I used U P Ss 

Chris Budnick: Leading up to a possible strike, right? And their contract campaign. I use them as an example all the time because we have the world headquarters in Louisville, local 89 teamsters and we visited their practice pickets. And I mean, but I use them as an example to folks in my plant to just let them know, like, how much, they escalated.

Chris Budnick: From July of 2022, all the way to July 2023 of their contract expiration, and they got to use all their tools, and their toolbox. And, well, they threatened that last tool of a strike and they got a historic contract. so I had to explain to folks that, you know, this strategy. And trust me, I was kind of mad too.

Chris Budnick: I was hoping all three, everyone’s [00:07:00] going to go out, me personally, but after thinking it through and talking to a few people, I realized, we have a lot of tools left because we only got to do a contract campaign for three months or less. So we have a lot of tools to use and we need to use it. And we have a lot of maneuvering we can do with the big three and all these plans we have.

Chris Budnick: So, that kind of got folks a little more energized but there’s, you know, there’s always not everyone, you can’t keep everyone happy and energetic about, you know, I think it was what, four weeks. Essentially we waited almost four weeks until we were called out. 

Chris Budnick: we were called out on October 11th at like 5 38 PM, or at least my local president got a call then. I don’t know exactly. I didn’t get out of the plant until, 6 30 ish. And uh, yeah, that feeling was crazy. like I just, that, [00:08:00] that butterfly feeling in the stomach and just like getting all shaky or whatever.

Chris Budnick: And I just get out there and the road is just completely packed full of cars, you know, you have 3, 000 typically in a shift and so 3, 000 cars are all out in the road. but I walked down. See, where the picket lines are, see if there’s, you know, anyone doing anything, cause it was kind of last minute.

Chris Budnick: it was a lot different than getting the two hour, notice. and, I ran into my local president and he gave me some signs and he’s like, I need you to go out to this special location, which was a rail yard, ran by the Teamsters. And I just want to make sure that if they see picketers there.

Chris Budnick: They’re going to turn around and not pick up any trucks and get out of there. So, yeah, I mean, I think the energy is still pretty, it’s leveled out. you know, and we’ll, you know, we’ll see what, what happens. I mean, it’s, it’s fairly new and. But we can [00:09:00] probably, if you have any other questions I can answer.

Chris Budnick: I hope I kind of covered your packed question there. Yeah, 

Teddy Ostrow: no, I asked a lot of you. so thank you. You did a great job. I mean, one thing I’m curious about is, you mentioned going to visit the Teamster picket lines. have you seen Teamsters visiting you guys? Like, I’m just curious about the community support given just how.

Teddy Ostrow: Huge of a plant. This is how important it is. And also just the surprise nature of it compared to previous, escalations that were, I mean, they were surprises then too, but there was every Friday, you know, two hours notice, as you said, and sort of an expectation that somewhere in the country, there will be, you know, folks standing up, but you guys.

Teddy Ostrow: Like smack dab in the middle of the week, Wednesday, all of a sudden it’s like, Oh, you’re going out. Um, and I’m, I’m curious, you know, how community support has been, and the energy sort of surrounding you guys. 

Chris Budnick: Yeah. yeah, the Teamsters. And that’s one thing I forgot as I was walking out. And I walked down [00:10:00] through all the gates and I ran into my president.

Chris Budnick: I happened to run into the, organizer for local 89 Teamsters and also the communications director. they’re already out there with cameras and just helping out in any way they could just to get some signs and they’re very excited and they’re to support us, 100%, even when I was on my picket duty.

Chris Budnick: the special one, we had some teamsters come out and just like, Hey, did anyone in cross anybody crossed the line? I’m like, Nope, I haven’t seen anyone yet. Or no one’s, it’s just some supervisors leave and they locked up the gate. that’s another thing I kind of want to throw out there is, you know, we have 11 picket lines with about 12.

Chris Budnick: picketers at each one doing 4 hour shifts, you know, and so that’s about, that’s over 700, picketers a day and, we have 80 and so each week we can basically I have 5, 000 members on the picket line [00:11:00] and,that still leaves about 3, 700 or 4, 000, I think.

Chris Budnick: Members that so there’s a lot of folks that are have a high anxiety of wanting to get out to the picket line. So they can get a strike check and all that. but going back to community support, The community. Well, there’s this New York pizza place. the very first day donated a bunch of pizzas.

Chris Budnick: I got to try some of it. I used to go there for lunch here. They’re, real good pizza. And then also a big, pizza company most recently came out, called Bear Nose in Louisville. And they, I think they,They donated 60 pizzas, which is really cool.

Chris Budnick: And then, along with, I think Bowling Green, Kentucky, I think it’s, I forgot their local number, 2164. they make the Corvette. They came up this weekend in support. I think they brought some supplies. And then I heard, [00:12:00] Spring Hill, Tennessee, the GM plant there, 18, 1853. I think their local is, they’re coming up this week.

Chris Budnick: So, I mean, we have, uh. Yeah, I mean, a lot of, you know, union support and, I think the community support is slowly building up. When it comes, there’s like a small grocery store, that offers like 10 percent off to striking workers, all you have to do is show them your badge, you know, so that’s little by little, we’re getting, some more support, 

Teddy Ostrow: I’m happy to hear that. It’s sort of, Building momentum moving on. I wanted to go to you, Lisa, just you’ve been doing excellent reporting on the strike for labor notes. And Chris just laid out this most recent escalation, but can you outline for us the strike overall from the.

Teddy Ostrow: PDC standups to now, I’m starting with the PDCs cause that’s, where I left off on the upsurge last time. but also [00:13:00] specifically on the PDCs, you know, I want to give you space to elaborate on that as well, because I know you’ve dug into them a little bit and you’re reporting, you know, what the purpose was and the significance of that specific escalation, but then please, bring us up to the present.

Lisa Xu: Yeah, definitely. So let me try to. Give the overview. So, on the first day of the strike, September 15th, you know, we had three assembly plants walk out. the next week, parts distribution centers, 38 of them across GM and Celantis, were taken out and Ford was spared. and then the following week, two assembly plants, one at Ford and one at GM.

Lisa Xu: came out, and Philantis was spared, and then, the next week, no escalations. we had a big win from GM, which I think we’ll talk about, later. And then, you know, following week, Chris’s plant, Kentucky truck plant was brought out. so, in the second week, You know, I think, we saw this major [00:14:00] escalation with, the parts distribution centers being brought out because these are, big profit centers for the big three.

Lisa Xu: so, in, the article I wrote for labor notes, I talked about how, the big three make a ton of money off of, uh, selling spare parts to dealerships. you know, I think a lot of people know, you know, when they have to like go to your dealership to, for some replacement part, the dealership, marks up that part, but the big three, also, makes a huge markup, on those parts as well.

Lisa Xu: So for those, warehouses to shut down,It, has an immediate impact, on their profits. and you know, another really, important aspect of this escalation, I think, is that unlike the assembly plans, which tend to be more concentrated in the Midwest and a few other parts of the country, the parts distribution centers are spread out all across the country.

Lisa Xu: there, you can see this on a map. and some of them, many of them are near [00:15:00] big urban. centers. So it’s allowed, it’s brought the strike to many more, Americans. And it’s also a way for people who support the workers to come out to the picket line if they don’t, you know, live near a big plant, in Detroit or the Midwest.

Lisa Xu: so those are some of the, I think aspects of like why this escalation the second week was so significant. 

Teddy Ostrow: totally. And just to emphasize the part you mentioned about kind of bringing the picket lines to a broader swath of people around the country.

Teddy Ostrow: I participated in a canvassing of a dealership here in New York city where I am. And it was interesting to talk to people just walking by the dealership, that. You know, they said, Oh, auto workers are just in, in Michigan, right? They’re just in Ohio. And I said, no, they’re actually, they’re 45 minutes outside of New York.

Teddy Ostrow: You know, they’re in these various different places and you can totally [00:16:00] go out and show your support, show your solidarity, around the country. And I think that’s an important thing to emphasize and also a very smart kind of strategic. Decision, in addition to obviously hitting the companies where they hurt, you know, and their profits, I think, you know, one of the most inspiring elements I’ve seen of this strike is what folks who are technically not out yet, um, have been doing to support their union family who are,

Teddy Ostrow: I’m talking about rallies, you know, practice pickets, these convoys we are seeing where, you know. Line of Chrysler’s or Jeeps, um, circle the plants, but in particular, something I’m interested in is working to rule as it’s called, Chris, you only just joined the strike. So you’ve participated in some of these actions and Lisa, labor notes has been among the few outlets actually covering.

Teddy Ostrow: This element of the strike. Can you both tell me about some of these actions by non [00:17:00] strikers right now? what are their purpose? you know what? What does it mean that the UAW President Sean Fain has been explicitly calling on rank and file to join in in this way? You know, even though you’re not joining in on the literal strike, you are participating in the stand up in your own way, you know, with or without the approval of local leaderships.

Chris Budnick: I can start. yeah, I mean, I mean, ideally it’s good to kind of build these escalations of work to rule and, and, and like no volunteer overtime, you know, before the contract expiration. But, if you can, to some degree, but like I said, we didn’t really have that time.

Chris Budnick: and working on expired contract, we got to make sure. Yeah. that nothing is changing. Nothing is changing the status quo. So that, you know, and if management does it, then it becomes an unfair labor practice and to [00:18:00] report that to the, so that’s 1 of the 1 of the actions you can take while you’re concurrently.

Chris Budnick: Not on strike and working on an expired agreement. but I mean, from my personal experience, no, over no voluntary overtime, I was offered to literally the weekend before our strike, to work Sunday and Monday. So that would have been a double time day and a time and a half day. And it was very.

Chris Budnick: Tempting, but we all stood together and said, no, and it didn’t happen, which was really cool to see, work to rule. That’s something that’s going to have to be educated or, you know, with the. And practiced and because there’s a lot of, ramifications for doing, you know, from management when you’re work to rule.

Teddy Ostrow: Can you explain that a little bit just for listeners, educate us a little bit actually on what that means and why that’s significant. [00:19:00] 

Chris Budnick: So yeah, work to rule the way I understand it is,we are given. An operating instruction sheet, we call ’em oiss at ford. other plants or GM and Chrysler, call it, or STIs call it differently.

Chris Budnick: but yeah, I mean, you work to exactly what your instruction sheet says, which are essentially made by an engineer. and, but you work at a normal. You know, pace while working to the rule to the exact instructions. and, but part of that is also a job safety assessment. they call them JSA’s at Ford.

Chris Budnick: So, if you’re not working to rule with that, like, if you put your safety glasses on your head, but you’re working to rule at the same time, you’re going to get, you know, you’re going to get disciplined for safety. So that’s going to be like a huge, so, and that, and when it’s just, if it’s just one [00:20:00] person doing it.

Chris Budnick: On the line, it can create a lot of issues, you know, so there has to be a lot of solidarity and a lot of teamwork to and it’s also a way to make sure, you know, that’s something we need to start doing just to make sure that our jobs aren’t overloaded in the plant, by working to rule and because anyone that’s kind of going above and beyond what they’re You know, that’s just more favors to the company and then they end up adding more work because you’re getting it done faster than the previous worker, that type of thing.

Chris Budnick: So, I mean, it’s something that has to be in practice and educated to the membership. And it’s, it’s kind of been lost over the last, you know, since tier 2 has been introduced into the contracts in 2007. it kind of, yeah, it kind of got lost there because of that division and the recession and everything.

Chris Budnick: from what I know, like I said, I only have 11 [00:21:00] years in, so I hired in afterwards, but from what the stories I’ve been told in the past, and my father works there. At Ford, you know, for about 30 years now that, yeah, I mean, that’s, there’s. Used to be a lot of militancy on the shop floor and, that’s kind of been lost over these contracts tier two, you know, divide and conquer contracts.

Chris Budnick: We’ve had 

Teddy Ostrow: right. And it seems like you guys are sort of like on the mission right now to sort of build that back up. And especially through your caucus, that seems to be the case. But just to clarify something for folks who may not. Quite understand the logical connection here. It’s, but we’re working to rule is important because oftentimes, at all of our jobs,at, uh, UAW, um, you know, big three plant folks in order to do the job, you know, you have to kind of not work to rule, go above and beyond, just to get it done.

Teddy Ostrow: So when you work to [00:22:00] rule, it actually. Times can be an effective slowdown for the company and that’s contributing to the economic damage to the company of it. Did I get that right? Chris? I’m I’m I’m sort of that’s how I understand it. At least. Yeah. 

Chris Budnick: Yeah. That’s I mean, it sounds about right. And I’m still, being educated on it myself and I’ve, Never really been able to experience it, too much.

Chris Budnick: I mean, I sure as hell threatened it. To a degree, in a different context. but, yeah. 

Teddy Ostrow: I can imagine you have, however, on the other end, have been asked to perform not to rule. To be asked to do more than what’s, I guess, contractually, or, you know, technically instructed of you. Yeah. Lisa, did you want to speak on this as well?

Teddy Ostrow: This sort of non strikers participating in the stand ups? 

Lisa Xu: Yeah, so I think, you know, we’ve covered kind of the range of activity from sort of [00:23:00] like stuff you would See and contract campaigns that other unions have run, like, you know, the practice pickets, the red shirt Wednesdays, the 10 minute meetings.

Lisa Xu: But like, this is stuff, you know, the UAW has not done in. I’m not sure anyone knows how many years. so, so that on its own is very cool. And then, all the work to rule stuff we discussed. So, If people want to hear more examples, they should read,this article that my coworker Keith Brower Brown, who’s also a former UAW member, published in Labor Notes, and, there are a lot more examples in there about how, you know, like, you know, you don’t always have to Just what examples of, you know, not making it easier for the boss, right?

Lisa Xu: Not doing favors for the boss. and, you know, one thing you mentioned, Teddy is Sean Fain is asking workers to do this and, you know, it’s to, put more pressure on the companies now for sure. But I think like the [00:24:00] strike, it’s also about kind of rebuilding the life of the union on the shop floor.

Lisa Xu: you know, that culture of militancy and organization that Chris mentioned that’s been lost, to, so to see that happening across all the plants, whether or not they’re on strike is just really amazing. And I definitely wish, you know, more of the media was covering it as well. And it’s being supported by you.

Lisa Xu: A. W. D. so that’s another important thing to know as 

Teddy Ostrow: well. Right. Yeah. People should definitely go read that article because I mean, some of them are just,I kind of laughed at some of them,in, sort of support of the workers, like, you know, the fact that I think, some folks I’m forgetting exactly where it was, but they use bikes, uh, bicycles in order to like, kind of traverse the plant because it’s.

Teddy Ostrow: These are big facilities, right? And you need to get somewhere quickly. You’d get hop on a bicycle. There’s no contractual, you know, a requirement to do your job faster, you know, so folks are just walking instead, adding 15 minutes [00:25:00] to like sort of this process that would otherwise go faster.

Teddy Ostrow: And so I think that was like a pretty funny, but also really wonderful example of this sort of, you know, Hey, we’re not going to make this easy for you guys, even though we’re. even though we’re not striking right now,so moving on, I think, you know, I know there isn’t that much information about this right now.

Teddy Ostrow: but there’s really no way we can, we can’t touch on what appears to be the biggest concession. By a big three automaker to date, and that is GM’s promise to fold in their battery plants, their electric battery plants into the UAW’s master contract with the company. And listeners probably have heard about this potentially, help us understand why this is being heralded as such an enormous.

Teddy Ostrow: Breakthrough, you know, what does this mean for the workers for the union the industry? the whole nine yards I want to hear from both of you, but maybe we can start with you first lisa. [00:26:00] 

Lisa Xu: Yeah, so Like you said, I don’t think we have Many more details and then what you described bit. So, the reason why this is significant is because GM and Solantis and Ford formed these joint ventures With non union companies to produce batteries in the u.

Lisa Xu: s. And they did that specifically To find this legal loophole through which they wouldn’t have to be covered by the UAW’s master agreement With the three companies. So for GM now to fold and say, you know, the thing which we told you was. Absolutely not possible. It’s now possible now that you’re threatening to strike us.

Lisa Xu: it’s pretty amazing. so previously, you know, with the battery plants not being under the master agreement, what that means is that the UAW has to individually unionize each plant. It has to go in and hold union [00:27:00] elections, one by one and then bargain contracts one by one.

Lisa Xu: Thank you. So that severely just disadvantages workers, at those plants. so now that they’re under the master agreement, they’re going to be subject. you know, not that we have the full details yet, I think, but they’re going to be subject to the same bargaining, that the workers, and the rest of the big three are under.

Lisa Xu: and then one other thing I want to mention, you know, I think there has been some back and forth, As to, you know, how much, how labor intensive is the production relative to traditional internal combustion engine production? And, you know, I think what many of us previously thought was that it was about, I think, 40 percent less labor intensive or more.

Lisa Xu: So now there’s more research now showing that actually when you factor in battery production in addition to just, you know, powertrain assembly, which is less labor intensive, [00:28:00] EV production as a whole, may not require less labor. So, so to be able to bring this. More labor intensive battery production, under the big 3 master agreement is a huge deal and, you know, it’s going to put pressure on board and philanthus, to do the same and hopefully, raise wages and improve working conditions for battery workers, outside of GM as well.

Lisa Xu: and to cite more labor notes, reporting, you know, my colleague, Louise Leon has written a lot about working conditions in these battery plants and they’re, you know, these workers are working with dangerous chemicals. I think OSHA is fining GM’s Ultium plant, now, hundreds of thousands of dollars just, because, you know, they, because they were non union plants, they didn’t previously have the same protections,as the union plant.

Lisa Xu: So. So yeah, so this is a big 

Teddy Ostrow: deal. Right. Chris, do you want to talk on this as well? 

Chris Budnick: yeah, it is a big deal. You know, it actually reminded me of,helping [00:29:00] Sean Fane campaign, for president. we did a little road trip down there to, Spring Hill, Tennessee, local 18, 1853, GM plant.

Chris Budnick: And, there’s all team plants, like being built, like different buildings, like all around the entire, you know, campus. And just, and there’s a lot of GMCH workers there. at the, in the complex and, you know, just hearing it, hearing from members, that are, you know, in progression or full on legacy and just hearing how just legally, divided they are.

Chris Budnick: it’s just like, man, we have a lot of work to do, so hearing GM. to promise to fold in its electric vehicle plants is to the, into the master contract is huge.

Chris Budnick: It’s absolutely huge. And it’s a factor of, now that they’ve done it [00:30:00] and the bargaining, it’s like, well, Stellantis and Ford do it as well because I can tell you from Ford’s end of things, we have a. battery plant being built as we speak and, about an hour South Louisville and then we also have the blue oval city in Tennessee, 

Chris Budnick: that is, uh, going to be like, the next generation electric truck. And it’s going to be really huge to hopefully I think it’s important that we follow suit. We have no choice, but to. what I’m trying to say is that these companies are going full EVs.

Chris Budnick: They’re making promises, you know, to the government, to some degree,

Chris Budnick: they want to be like fully electric by 2035 and they keep changing like the year 2030, 2035, whatever the deal is. So, I mean, there’s a lot of folks in my plant that are like, why [00:31:00] is this important? Why are EVs so important? And it’s like, well. You know, if Ford has their name on it, that’s our work.

Chris Budnick: That’s our work. and we shouldn’t let it just go to some folks, at a very low wage. we need to adjust transition. You know, it freaked me out seeing that research done. I think it was back in 2018 about EVs saying that the labor, the amount of labor needed for EVs is less about 25, 30 percent less.

Chris Budnick: And, thank you, Lisa, for Putting out the, uh, that there’s been new studies done, that it might take more. so I haven’t read into that. it is just so important to make sure that the big 3 and the UAW. Come together on that and get all the plans, under our master agreement. So we can, continue 

Chris Budnick: mainly for a just transition and as Sean family [00:32:00] says, you know, for, you know, social justice and economic justice, 

Chris Budnick: Thank goodness we have the leadership in the UAW to do it. 

Teddy Ostrow: Right. No, thanks.

Teddy Ostrow: Thanks for that. 

Teddy Ostrow: And I do recommend to people that they go and read and in these times article, really in depth article by, Lisa’s colleague, Luis Feliz Leon, explaining sort of the. Honestly, horrific, conditions,of these chemical spills, explosions, he digs into some like police reports, that I think hadn’t been covered before.

Teddy Ostrow: So it’s a great piece. and at your company, Chris, I wanted also to mention that up until this moment, there, the means through which it seemed the UAW was trying to sort of push up against this turn among the big three to the EVs and to try to Sort of use that turn to undermine your guys’s hard fought, contracts and standards was to give the right to strike over plant closures to the workers, which is [00:33:00] something that Ford actually, gave up, as I understand it, in negotiation so far that if they are going to close these plants and then go off to, you know, not a less friendly union state or even to Mexico to open up some of these E.

Teddy Ostrow: V. plants. no, we’re going to strike over it. Give that ultimate leverage that you guys are using right now across the country. and I think just to use that to turn, you know, that’s a pretty big win in itself as well at Ford. But to end, I’d like to ask you both to take a, take stock a little bit, on what’s happened over the course of this strike so far, you know, the strike isn’t over, obviously.

Teddy Ostrow: Yeah, absolutely. it may be several weeks, um, still, but who knows? We’ll see, feel free to talk about what’s already been one, but also beyond what is contractual, you know, cause I think I’m talking a little bit more broadly, you know, for one, I think, and I hope that we have already seen a sort of.

Teddy Ostrow: Showcasing for the legitimacy of the kind of militant unionism,[00:34:00] that you guys at UAWD have fought for, this sort of class warfare orientation, perhaps, that is required of workers to win what they deserve, and I think that’s hugely important for the entire labor movement, so please, you know, take this wherever you want to take it, but how are you measuring the success or failure of this strike so far, you know, how, what has been won already, What is yet to be achieved?

Teddy Ostrow: But ultimately, the question is, what can we already say about the UAW’s historic standup strike? 

Lisa Xu: well, first I think, you know, Chris and I organized together in UAWD for a few years before this. And I don’t know what you think, Chris, but this has. exceeded my wildest imagining for how much, you know, we, the reform movement would be able to accomplish in just, you know, a couple of years.

Lisa Xu: I think first, being able to elect the whole slate that we ran, the slate that, yeah, that Sean headed up and then just seeing [00:35:00] just what a drastic I mean, still, you know, incomplete, but so far, like, just what, a new president and leadership, has been able to accomplish. So, I think just the story of that is very important, and I hope that inspires, workers organizing to reform their own unions.

Lisa Xu: And, yeah, 

Chris Budnick: can I comment on that? Lisa? Go ahead. Well, I mean, it’s it’s yeah, it’s wonderful. And you’ve done absolute amazing work with us at and we sure do miss you. We really do. but, yeah, I mean, I just wanted to point something out and I’ll let you finish your thoughts. but, I just want to point out that, you know, it’s.

Chris Budnick: the kind of goal of reform in my mind, I guess my personal opinion was to, you know, do a top down approach, and yeah, and it is absolutely crazy that we were able to achieve that as UAW members. and supporters to [00:36:00] get that done, which we, you know, for the most part got,you know, we started to reform it and obviously we’re seeing.

Chris Budnick: The great work that’s coming out of it. The great ideas. but now, I mean, it’s a bottom up approach at this point. now that we have a good start of, we have good leadership at the top to encourage us and engage us and educate us to do so. and from the bottom up and that’s where, you know, all these, you know, building.

Chris Budnick: militancy in the union, to constantly fight, a lot harder, with the, with these companies and, you know, and the hope is that it’s going to really build, our union and the labor movement. To, to heights we’ve never seen before and let’s do it. Let’s go. So, thank you for mentioning that Lisa.

Chris Budnick: I’ll let you continue. 

Lisa Xu: Oh, yeah. No, thank you for mentioning that. I think you’re right. I think what we’re seeing the UAW is, [00:37:00] you know, we’re seeing sort of some change at the top that is sparking the change at the bottom, which is really the change that we really need to sustain reform and this.

Lisa Xu: struggle going forward. And, you know, Teddy, I think you mentioned class warfare. Well, the class warfare has been going on for a long time. It’s just that the working class needs to waken to the fact that, you know, capital has been waging class warfare against the working class,for decades and has sort of quelled, I think, a lot of the militancy and, you know, the Ability to fight back.

Lisa Xu: And, you know, I think what’s been so amazing is seeing, everyone, including workers around the world kind of taking note of what’s happening in the UAW and seeing, you know, this Such, such an important historical union, kind of sees the reins and [00:38:00] say, you know, this is not a one sided class, struggle.

Lisa Xu: and I mean, that for me has just been, you know, even though like, I was A part of it from the inside and now like just looking at, you know, looking at it a little bit more from the outside at labor notes. it’s just amazing to see honestly, surreal. I just can’t emphasize that because it’s been such a long time coming.

Lisa Xu: And I think so much is happening so quickly that, you know, I, you know, I just, I’ve been like, just truly very inspired watching all the workers. yeah. in the strike and, you know, also the way Sean Spain has been, leading the fight. So, yeah, those are just some of my own personal feelings about it.

Chris Budnick: Yeah, it’s, it’s been a rush and I know you probably feel the same way, Lisa, sometimes it’s just like after every type of campaign, you think that you can take a little break and then you can’t, you don’t [00:39:00] get a 

Lisa Xu: break, Chris. 

Chris Budnick: No, it’s a never ending fight, and that’s, you know, I always believe in, Having good balance and everything and things have been out of balance, over the, over the decades, the corporations have really built power, over the workers and, it’s time for us to fight back and, and have the leadership,engage it, You know, and, educate us and get us where we need to be.

Chris Budnick: cause that is just, yeah, just union members itself, ourselves. We need to have to, and just workers join a union, any workers out there that are non union. I mean, your boss has to say. in the union, you have a say, you know, and it takes time to, to organize and build that militancy, but we’ll get there, you know, even in the UAW, very militant.

Chris Budnick: Then kind of lost it there for a little bit and now we’re back, or we’re [00:40:00] getting back and it’s going to be a constant struggle, constant fight, and it’s going to be never ending. and, yeah, I mean, I kind of like where we’re going here. I just, well, I wanted to mention some of the gains, you know, 

Teddy Ostrow: yeah, if you want to talk about the concrete wins as well,

Chris Budnick: Yeah. Cola. Cola is a good, uh, topic because there’s a lot of folks, has that have said, union members. Cola’s gone. It’s gone forever. We’re never getting it back. And the funny thing is it just took one plant, the Bronco and the Ford Ranger plant at Ford for, Ford to fold,and give us back Cola.

Chris Budnick: you know, right now it’s just, I mean, I’m assuming it’s all in writing, you know, so, and that’s huge and not to mention they’re going to go by the 2007 Cola language. That’s not going to be some new. Improved type of language that’s [00:41:00] going to, that’s going to, you know, basically be half cola or Coke zero as Sean Fang called it.

Chris Budnick: but we really need to look at, I mean, we talked about EVs and how we want our, any EVs that the companies are, Making that it’s under our master agreement, that’s obviously a huge thing, but there’s also, as a tier 2, I don’t have, a pension, a defined pension or healthcare when I retire.

Chris Budnick: So, for a lot of years, I’m not good on all that financial stuff, you know, but I’m also not going to retire for another 25 years. So, I mean, it’s important to me to have a good retirement and, but I also saw my 401k drop like 40 grand in 2021. You know, and I’ve only gotten half of that back since, um, so that’s very, I mean, things can happen with the [00:42:00] 401k.

Chris Budnick: that wouldn’t happen with a pension because it’s a guaranteed amount of money. so, I mean, those are things that, That are very important, but. Also, getting retirees a raise, they need a raise, some type of cola to keep up with inflation. so I think it’s 2003, 2004 was the last time they got a raise.

Chris Budnick: you know, I mean, hell that’s almost 20 years. Retirees have gone without a raise and they need a raise not to mention legacy, union family that are going to be going out and retiring.

Chris Budnick: they’d be nice if they’re caught up with, you know, the times and inflation and all that stuff. I want to make this very clear what I’m expecting on a wage increase. because cola was suspended back in 2009. Um, and these are basically my calculations, but we need a 20%.

Chris Budnick: upfront increase on wages just to catch up to where we would be if we had [00:43:00] cold of the last. You know, 14 years, uh, so 20 percent increase and then after that, they can give us, I mean, we got cola back. So let’s, let’s get some raises, you know, regular raises to get us above the standard. so we can set that standard for other workers across the country, you know, a union or not.

Chris Budnick: And that’s that’s 1 thing I wanted to really mention and say clearly. so there’s 10 percent up front is not good enough. It’s not even close. To where we should be, and, we need at least 20.

Teddy Ostrow: Well, thank you for kind of going through some of what was one, but also what is still obviously, left on the table. And there, there appears to be a lot left on the table, but there’s also a lot more of you guys who aren’t out on strike yet, technically. So, you know, given the trend of this strikes, given the successes so far, I think, you know, it’s, it’s, not unlikely that you guys will be able to win a lot more. but [00:44:00] I appreciate you both going into sort of what was more broadly one so far and your point, Chris, about, you know, winning the top down, but now the fight begins really, on the bottom up and we’ve been hearing, I guess, a little hints of that in that, you know, uh, we’re trying to, build the culture of, Work to rule actions or practice pickets or rallies because, you know, this is something we’ve emphasized on this show before.

Teddy Ostrow: This is the beginning of a reform in the UAW,to the militancy that, made your union so historic, you know, and you’re right, the fight never ends 

Teddy Ostrow: Well, Chris Budnick and Lisa shoe. Thanks for joining me on the upsurge. 

Lisa Xu: Thank you. 

Chris Budnick: Thank you. 

Teddy Ostrow: You just listened to episode 16 of The Upsurge. 

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I’m Teddy Ostrow. Thanks for listening and catch you next time

The UAW’s Stand Up Strike is alive and growing. More than 18,000 auto workers across the Big Three – Ford, GM, and Stellantis – are on strike across twenty states, and just a few hours after this episode posts, thousands more will likely join them. The Fiery Labor Fall is here.

In this episode, we bring you on the ground of UAW picket lines and rallies across three states – Michigan, Ohio, and New York. You’ll hear the perspectives and stories of over a dozen rank-and-file auto workers, as well as direct interviews with UAW president Shawn Fain and other union leaders. 

Follow Teddy as he zig-zags across states to ask the workers themselves what they think about the strike. UAW auto workers explain the stakes and key demands of their fight, how it’s gotten to this point, and what the renewed militancy of their union means to them. 

Additional links/info

• Support the show at Patreon.com/upsurgepod.
• Follow us on Twitter @upsurgepod, Facebook, The Upsurge, and YouTube @upsurgepod.
• Read Teddy’s dispatch from the picket lines in Michigan and Ohio for The Real News Network, and his interview with labor sociologist Barry Eidlin for Jacobin. Also hear him and TRNN editor in chief Maximillian Alvarez talk about the UAW strike on Rev Left Radio.

Hosted by Teddy Ostrow
Edited by Teddy Ostrow and Ruby Walsh
Produced by NYGP & Ruby Walsh, in partnership with In These Times & The Real News
Music by Casey Gallagher
Cover art by Devlin Claro Resetar

Transcript

The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.

Walter Robinson Jr: You shouldn’t have to struggle when you work for one of the big three.

Walter Robinson Jr: Because $16. 67. That’s not a livable wage anywhere in the United States. 

Perry Wilks Jr: Medical costs is up, outrageous food costs, housing, rent 

Valelynn Marshall:  We’ve been losing every contract. We always got pushed back to give to the next man.

Valelynn Marshall: Like this is history to me. It’s been long overdue. I’m confident that we will come out better this time around. 

Valelynn Marshall: Because we showing them that we mean it.

Teddy Ostrow: Hello my name is Teddy Ostrow. Welcome to the Upsurge, a podcast about the future of the American labor movement.

Teddy Ostrow: This podcast covers the renewed militancy of the United Auto Workers, the legendary union that right now, for the first time in its history, is striking each of the Big Three automakers at once. That’s Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis, the owner of [00:01:00] Chrysler, Jeep and other brands. 

Teddy Ostrow: The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

Teddy Ostrow: And a quick reminder: This is a listener-supported podcast. So please, if you want it to keep going, head on over to patreon.com/upsurgepod and become a monthly contributor today. You can find a link in the description.

Teddy Ostrow: And as an extra incentive, the next 18 people who sign up for our Patreon will receive a free one-year subscription to In These Times magazine, one of the best outlets covering the labor movement and progressive politics today.

Teddy Ostrow: On to the show.

Teddy Ostrow: In this episode, we’re bringing you on the ground of the UAW Stand Up pickets lines, where, as of this [00:02:00] recording, over 18,000 Big Three auto workers across twenty states are out on strike. By the time this episode posts, however, there may thousands more on the line. Maybe even all 146,000 auto workers across the three companies.

Teddy Ostrow: But we’re gonna begin this story on the night of September 14, when the strike clock was still ticking.

Teddy Ostrow: I’m at UAW Local 900, uh, which is the local of the Ford Michigan Assembly Plant here in Wayne, Michigan. And we are about an hour away from the strike deadline

Teddy Ostrow: That’s me, talking to myself in the corner of a relatively quiet UAW union hall. 

Teddy Ostrow: ,uh, Sean Fain just went on Facebook Live and announced that, uh, Michigan Assembly Plant was one of the three locations, uh, that will be struck if the companies and The UAW don’t come to a deal. 

Teddy Ostrow: I watched as UAW members [00:03:00] emptied snacks and drinks onto tables, and stacked picket signs near the entrance of the hall. 

Teddy Ostrow: In an hour’s time, the room would be abuzz with workers who had laid down their tools at the auto plant across the street. Thousands of others would do the same at assembly plants in Ohio and Missouri. And in a week’s time, 5,000 more workers in parts deports across the country would walk out, too. 

Teddy Ostrow: Here in Michigan, they would soon line up in the union hall to receive their picketing assignements, and then join the crowd that had already started assembling outside the plant’s main gate.

 (Chants/audio)   

Teddy Ostrow: After midnight, the picket lines were up. 

Brandi White: We ain’t playing no games. I am happy. Okay, it’s my first strike, and like, as long as I’ve been here, and I’m out here.

Robert Harrison: I’m, you know, fighting for my union. I think this is a perfect opportunity.

Robert Harrison: It just feel good to see everybody outside to come together. You know, we [00:04:00] come as a unit.

Darnell Foreman: We just, we just got off. So we’re here supporting all our union brothers and sisters, you know, supporting everyone.

Teddy : It boisterous first night in Wayne Michigan, but when I drove fifty miles south to the Jeep assembly plant in Toledo, Ohio, the next day, I got to hear about what it was like for the Stellantis workers who also walked off the job. Here’s Melanie Smith on the picket line:

Melanie Smith: My mom, uh, works second shift in body shop, and I was at home when the strike happened, but she was at work on the phone, and they were going wild.

Melanie Smith: So excited to finally strike for our rights.

Teddy Ostrow: Melanie could hear the jubilant scene behind her mother’s voice.

Melanie Smith: When it got announced on Facebook, everybody just starts screaming like we’re about to go home early, you know? It’s hype.

Teddy Ostrow: On that first night, it was official. 13,000 UAW members had walked off the job. And it is the first time in the union’s history, that they are striking each [00:05:00] of the Big Three simultaneously. Normally the union had picked one company as a target. Once they negotiated a contract with them, it would set the pattern for the rest. Not this time.

Teddy Ostrow: Over the course of the first week, I asked workers across picket lines why they were striking. 

Shaun Gaddis: We’re out here to fight for our wages. We’re out here to fight for our pensions, and we’re out here to end tears.

Anita Hill: I’m out here for everything. Equal pay, no tiers.

Brandi White: I want to see COLA because every year it’s going up and we’re not going nowhere. I want health care when I retire.

Teddy Ostrow: Other demands by the union include a 32-hour work week, the right to strike over plant closures, which are a dark cloud over auto workers’ job security, and the end to the companies’ abuse of temporary workers. 

Teddy Ostrow: Ultimately, what it comes down to is that auto workers are fed up [00:06:00] with decades of backsliding, concessionary contracts. 

Samantha parker: we’re out here because we want a fair contract and to get stuff back that we gave up when we helped bail out the automotive industry. 

Teddy Ostrow: You see, they don’t want to give anymore, like they did during the Great Recession to save Chrysler and GM as they went bankrupt. No, they work for companies now that made a combined 21 billion dollars in profits in just the first six months of this year. A quarter-trillion across North America in the past decade. Meanwhile, the average hourly wages of assembly line autoworkers have declined by 30% since 2003. UAW members are saying enough is enough. We’re not gonna give anymore. We’re going to take.

Shaun Gaddis: The CEOs they got 46 percent pay raises. The shareholders got 150. Percent pay raise but the workers get nothing and we’re the backbone of the company. We didn’t know our plant was [00:07:00] going to strike, but… We’re here for the fight. And we’re going to stand in solidarity to get what we deserve. 

Teddy Ostrow: Now, WHO the union is striking is not the only historic element of this fight, but also HOW they’re striking. Given the union’s bargaining failures of years past, the UAW has scrapped its old playbook and developed a new strategy, called the “Stand Up” strike. That’s a call-back of sorts to the Flint sit-downs at of 1936-37 that helped build the union.

Teddy Ostrow: Rather than striking all company facilities at once, they are targeting specific plants at each of the Big Three, asking them to stand up and join the picket line in waves. It gives the UAW the leverage of potentially calling out more facilites should the companies not play ball. If the Big Three stonewall the union, the strike will grow over time.

Teddy Ostrow: The purpose is to keep the companies guessing; [00:08:00] to play the Big Three off one another in negotiations, rewarding the corporations that make concessions, while inflicting more financial pain on those that remain stubborn. Some have compared it to a game of chess.

Teddy Ostrow: While some workers I spoke were anxious to just join the strike already, most UAW members told me they were on board with the strategy. Here’s Sean Crawford, a GM worker at the Warren Tech Center with UAW Local 160.

Sean Crawford: I think it’s a, a new, exciting and creative strategy, and I want to see it work. I think it’s… More likely to work because we’re going to be able to stretch out the strike and defense fund.

Teddy Ostrow: That’s another advantage. The union’s $825 million dollar strike fund is no small sum, but with the stand up strategy, the union won’t risk blowing through it. Most workers can stay on the job, and if they’re laid off by the company, some will be able to draw from unemployment insurance. 

Teddy Ostrow: Over [00:09:00] the week I spent in Metro Detroit, I zig-zagged across Michigian and Ohio, attending picket lines, rallies, and other actions. You can hear the honks of solidarity by passersby that were a near constant backdrop to my conversations.

Teddy Ostrow: On that first night in Wayne, Michigan I met Walter Robinson Jr, a UAW quality rep at the Ford plant. With over three decades on the job, Walter explained that he actually wasn’t on the line for workers like himself. Rather, he was standing in solidarity for future generations.

Teddy Ostrow: So, what are we doing out here? What are you doing and how are you

Teddy Ostrow: feeling? 

Walter Robinson Jr: Well, we’re out here. We’re feeling good. The thing is that we’re here to make sure that The future people that get hired in. I’ve got 34 years. It’s people out here that’s struggling, that work in this plan every day and they shouldn’t have to. You shouldn’t have to struggle when you work for one of the big three.

Teddy Ostrow: You see, [00:10:00] Walter makes top rate at around $32 per hour. But because of concessions in previous contracts, many workers hired after him may start at under half of his wages. Sometimes under $16 per hour. And it can take them eight years to catch up.

Walter Robinson Jr: We need to make sure that we get more pay for our entry level people because 16. 67. That’s not a livable wage anywhere in the United States. States. So, uh, these, these people that come in here and work every day can’t even buy the product that we build in the trucks that we’re building cost between 60 and 90, 000. 

Teddy Ostrow: I heard this a lot. That workers can’t afford to buy the cars they themselves are building. But pay is not the only thing that separates Walter from many of his coworkers.

Teddy Ostrow: Walter also has a pension, and he has good retiree medical benefits funded by the employer. Despite doing the [00:11:00] same work as Walter, most of his coworkers do not have such privileges.

Teddy Ostrow: We’re talking about something we’ve covered on The Upsurge before. A cancer for unions. We’re talking about tiers. GM, Ford, and Stellantis – they’re riddled with the things. And the UAW wants to end them once and for all.

Tiffany Shipp: It’s electricity in the air!

Tiffany Shipp: Alright, well, we  

Teddy Ostrow: That is Tiffiny Shipp, a Ford worker. With the energy she brings, you may be surpised to hear that she is not actually on strike. Not yet at least. 

Teddy Ostrow: Tiffiny works in the body shop of the Ford Dearborn Truck Plant. She’s been there for ten years, which means she was hired after 2007. And that means that she’s a tier two worker.

Teddy Ostrow: Tell me about the tiers. What do you think about it? What needs to be done? 

Tiffiny Shipp: They need to end them. I remember starting, and I’ll never forget my first day. This girl told me, you know what, I wouldn’t [00:12:00] be here for half pay. I said, what do you mean? I didn’t even know how much the pay was here. I thought I was getting paid what everybody else was. And she’s like, no, I get paid 30 an hour. I’m like, what?

Tiffiny Shipp: I’m like, I almost choked. She’s like, yeah, you only get $15.66. And just the fact that someone can stand next to you and brag about their house or their car, and you’re struggling!

Tiffiny Shipp: That’s a, that’s a shame. That’s not right.

Tiffiny Shipp: Tiffiny explained that the problem is not just lower starting pay, or the retirement benefits tier two workers don’t get. It’s also what tiers do to worker solidarity.

Tiffiny Shipp: And the point is, it separates, divides. It adds animosity. You know, it just does. It creates really a hostile work environment. 

Tiffiny Shipp: Thankfully, that animosity didn’t seem to break to bonds of solidarity on the picket lines.

Tiffiny Shipp: Now, the thing about tiers at the Big Three is there’s a lot [00:13:00] of them, and beginning with the 2007 contract, it was just tier, after tier, after tier. 

Tiffiny Shipp: In Toledo, I met a number of workers who are even further down the totem pole than Tifinny is.

Devin Dominique: Devin Dominique, I am a production line operator, I’ve been a SC, which is a supplemental employee since 2018, 

Teddy Ostrow: Devin is actually the first person I spoke to on the picket line at the Toledo Jeep plant. He’s a supplemental employee, which is just another title for part-time temporary worker, or “temp” for short. 

Teddy Ostrow: He does regular assembly line work, but with even lower pay than tier two workers, and much worse health care benefits. This is why temps are often referred to by UAW members as tier three workers. 

Teddy Ostrow: But the biggest problem for temps, especially at Stellantis, is they’re not all that temporary.

Devin Dominique: so I believe that’s a little bit of some BS.

Devin Dominique: [00:14:00] Out here being part time, not by choice, for five to six years. 

Teddy Ostrow: You heard that right. Devin’s been a temp for nearly six years. This is personal for him. His grandparents worked and retired at the same Jeep plant. He wants the same thing. He wants to be made permanent. But there really isn’t a clear pathway in the contract for that to happen.

Devin Dominique: I believe that every SE feels the same way as me. I think they all want to be hired in. Um, I think that it’s a reasonable thing. I don’t think it’s too much to ask. Uh, I don’t think too many people want to be part time for five, six years, you know, and then with no opportunity or no, uh, No assurance that we’ll even get hired in, so I don’t think this strikes, uh, for nothing.

Devin Dominique: Do you work part time hours? Like, do you No, I work 60 60 hours a week.

Devin Dominique: You know, some weeks they might call a day off or something like that, but I work 6 days a week, if I can.

Devin Dominique: The union is calling for the Big Three to hire [00:15:00] temps after 90-days of work. Temps like Devin are among the most precarious workers in the Big Three workforce. Which means striking can be especially difficult as they subsist on just $500 weekly strike pay. So I asked Devin

Devin Dominique: How did you feel when you heard, uh, you guys were going on strike? Uh, my. My girlfriend actually started crying because she’s worried about our bills being paid. But I told her that this is actually the first kind of sign of relief that I’ve had in this company in a long time.

Devin Dominique: Because I know that this is actually one of the only ways that we’ll probably get somewhat of what we want or need.

Devin Dominique: Devin’s point really stuck with me. And he wasn’t the only one to make it. The truth is, striking isn’t easy. It can be tough financially, emotionally draining. But every single worker I spoke to said that they believe this is the only way they’ll get what they deserve. That by standing in solidarity with their coworkers, [00:16:00] they can endure, and they can win. 

Devin Dominique: Tiers are central to this year’s contract fight, but also workers across the board were talking about issues that cut across classifications. Here’s Perry Wilks Jr. from the Ford Dearborn Truck Plant.

Perry Wilks Jr: , Everything is skyrocketing and we need wages that’s going to benefit our lifestyle, our lives, spirit.

Perry Wilks Jr: Medical costs is up, outrageous food costs, housing, rent.

Perry Wilks Jr: One of the solutions, according to Perry and others I spoke to across Michigan and Ohio, is COLA, or cost-of-living adjustments. Those were the inflation-tacked raises that auto workers have recieved since the Treaty of Detroit in 1950. During the bailouts, the union gave them up to help save GM and Chrysler. Now, the workers want them back.

Perry Wilks Jr: But there was another thing workers talked about on the picket line, that was a little more… visible.

Teddy Ostrow: I can’t help but notice You have [00:17:00] two risk guards.

Teddy Ostrow: Is that from 

Perry Wilks Jr: working? Yes, it is. Some of these jobs are overloaded, they do not want to listen to the workers when they’re actually out here doing the physical work. They are creating issues, medical issues, uh, like myself, which I have two, uh, carpal tunnel issues now that just happened this week in this plan on a job that’s overloaded. 

Perry Wilks Jr: By overloaded, Perry means that it’s basically impossible to perform the tasks that are asked of him in the time alloted. Without hurting yourself at least. Auto workers are notoriously expected to perform fast, reptitive motions on the assembly line. Think of Charlie Chaplin in “Modern Times” – management speeds up the line so fast Chaplin has to hoist himself onto the belts just to keep up.

Perry Wilks Jr: Here’s Melanie Smith and Johnny Reese at Jeep.

Melanie: We just, yeah. Over 200 cars per shift. That’s just us. And then you think about next door, they’re building what, like 500? [00:18:00] Yeah. Next door, building like 500 cars a day, 10 hour days. Have you gotten injured? Have you like suffered from anything? I mean, back problems. Yeah. And like your hands will be stiff and things.

Melanie: Body hurt. You work in 10 days on Sunday. All you want to do is relax. Your body beat up. 

Teddy Ostrow: For some workers, like Samantha Parker, who has worked ten years on the assembly line at Stellantis, it’s a bit worse than just back problems or stiffness.

Samantha parker: I have bilateral carpal tunnel. I just had a surgery on one hand and I have to have surgery on my other hand. It hurts to hold my child, my two year old. Like it shouldn’t hurt my body to hold my two year old because I’m sacrificing so much of my body and my life for this place 

Samantha parker: And you don’t get a pension, right? Nope. Retiree medical benefits? Nope, nothing like that. I mean, how does it feel to like, basically do a really tough job, you get, you have to have surgery for it, and then, when you, you know, when you retire, you don’t get these things. It’s petrifying, because if my body’s already wearing down now, what’s it gonna be [00:19:00] like when, after I’ve been here for 20, 30 years, and I don’t have anything to help.

Samantha parker: Keep my body going so I can hold my grandkids and then my great grandkids, God willing.

Teddy Ostrow: This is why one of the union’s demands is a 32 hour work week. More time off means workers can rest their bodies, and also, spend more time with their families. UAW members want to work to live, not live to work.

Teddy Ostrow: On top of all of this, these auto jobs that the UAW is fighting so hard to improve, are more and more feeling like a gamble. Just a few feet from Samantha in Toledo, I spoke with Krystal Maggio.

Krystal maggio: Yeah, I’ve been pushed around from plant closures. I’m originally from Belvedere local 1268, and I came to Toledo Jeep a year and a half ago. 

Teddy Ostrow: Belivedere, as in Belivedere, Illinois. You may have heard that name before. And that’s because it [00:20:00] is one of the 65 communities decimated by a Big Three plant closure over the past 20 years. Last year, Stellantis decided to shutter the Jeep plant in Belivdere where Krystal worked, laying off 1,300 workers. 

Teddy Ostrow: Krystal was actually a part of an earlier round of layoffs there, but in order to keep her job, her wages, her benefits, she was forced to transfer to Toledo — 300 miles from her entire family. 

Krystal maggio: . I don’t want to have to transfer again, but they say they wanted to close 18 more plans. That’s kind of scary. Are you afraid it’s going to happen again? I mean, yeah, you never really know what could happen. 

Teddy Ostrow: Over the years, thousands of auto workers like Krystal have had to part with their communities or risk financial ruin, as the economy surrounding the plants dries up. Some workers have had to move 5, 6, 7 times. As Krystal noted, in negotiations [00:21:00] with the UAW Stellantis is threatening to close 18 more plants around the country.

Teddy Ostrow: The union wants the right to strike the company over such plant closures, and for the Big Three to set up programs to support workers left behind in the communities where they close up shop.

Teddy Ostrow: Now, it’s important to understand that there’s an international angle to this. Stellantis moved Belvidere’s production to Mexico, where they can pay workers as low $2.50 per hour. This is a decades-long trend: Automakers moving production to places where they can exploit workers more, and fatten their profits. That also includes moving production to US states in the south, where union density is lower and the laws are more hostile to workers. 

Teddy Ostrow: That brings us to one of the most important aspects of the auto workers’ fight.

Shawn Fain: what are the stakes of this fight for the auto industry, the EV transition, and the broader working class?

Shawn Fain: Well, [00:22:00] the shameful part of the EV transition is our tax dollars are financing it, and the companies are taking all the money like always, and not even taking labor in the equation. Like always, corporations and billionaires get all the money, and working class people are left behind. It’s gotta stop.

Teddy Ostrow: That was Shawn Fain, the UAW president, on the the first night of the strike at the Michigan Assembly. 

Teddy Ostrow: What he’s explaining to me is that the emergent electric vehicle and battery industries, despite receiving hundreds of billions of dollars in federal loans, grants, and tax incentives, are trying to move full-steam ahead without union labor.

Teddy Ostrow: Indeed, most of the current or proposed EV plants in the United States are in the south, and will be run without UAW representation. So, part of why the right to strike over plant closures is so important, is because it it’s [00:23:00] one lever for union to prevent the Big Three from moving their plants to where the EV transition would erode union standards.

Teddy Ostrow: And more broadly, if the UAW wins a good contract out of this strike, it will position them to actually unionize this emergent, mostly non-union industry.

Teddy Ostrow: This willingness to take on corporate power… it’s something we haven’t seen from the UAW in a long time. I asked workers what they thought of this marked shift in their union.

Perry Wilks Jr: it’s been a long overdue. I take my hat off to, uh, new president Shawn Fain.

David Carey Mack: I love the way the direction the, uh, unions going in. That’s my guy. I love Sean Fane. Everything that I want. Seeing him wrapped up in a box.

Valeynn Marshall: we needed a voice. The other ones was no good for us. that’s why we’re here right now. He really did it. He made it happen. And I’m happy about it. 

Valelynn Marshall: Like this is history to me

Teddy Ostrow: Since the 1980s the UAW approach to unionism was one of so-called labor-management [00:24:00] partnership. The union and employers working together to flourish in a competitive market. 

Teddy Ostrow: But the reality of what that’s looked like for workers is concession after concession after concession. And eventually outright corruption.

Teddy Ostrow: But the new union leadership, led by Shawn Fain, an electrician at Chrysler from Kokomo, Indiana, is flipping the script.

Shawn Fain: You guys are ready to rumble now, aren’t you? We’re in it, baby. 

Teddy Ostrow: Fain doesn’t shy away from confrontation. And he always keeps his eyes and words on what’s important for the workers.

Reporter: You’ve got competitors for these big three automakers, uh, paying a lot less in some cases for labor than these companies. How can you expect… to actually get everything you’re asking. 

Shawn Fain: Shame on those competitors. Number one. All this is the companies are trying to drive a race to the bottom, and we’re better than that.

Shawn Fain: America’s better than that. 

Teddy Ostrow: And if you haven’t noticed, Fain speaking in terms we mostly don’t hear from modern labor leaders. He’s talking about a [00:25:00] class struggle.

Shawn Fain: You know, we’ve been accused of causing a class war. Class war has been going on for 40 years in this country. The billionaire class has been taking everything, and the working class has been left scraping, paycheck to paycheck, just trying to survive. It’s time to put an end to that class war.

Shawn Fain: And it’s time to pick a side. Either you’re with the billionaire class, or you’re with the working class.

Teddy Ostrow: Now, while the mainstream media have focused mostly on Fain, who shocked the nation when he won the UAW presidency earlier this year, the real story sits squarely with the workers themselves.

Eric Truss: So what’s different about this time is, the member had a chance to get engaged in what’s called, one member, one vote, where they were able to do a direct election of their own president and, executive [00:26:00] board staff.

Teddy Ostrow: That’s Eric Truss, a Ford worker at the Dearborn Truck Plant and the financial secretary of Unite All Workers for Democracy, or UAWD, a rank-and-file reform caucus within the union.

Teddy Ostrow: Eric is explaining that prior to last year, rank and file workers couldn’t actually vote in an election for the union’s top officers. It was done through an undemocratic delegate system. But UAWD organized hard to introduce a one member, one vote system within the union. They then ran a slate of candidates, including Fain, a member of UAWD, all of whom won their seats. 

Eric Truss: this case the members had a chance to do that and they took advantage of it And because they did and they got to experience sean being in office They got to see a new approach towards how we negotiate and this has brought more fire to the membership that they’ve never seen 

Teddy Ostrow: The member-elected leadership appears to now be working actually on behalf of the members. [00:27:00] And they’re being transparent about what’s going on in bargaining.

Eric Truss: It seems like under the old Uh regime i’ll call it that they’ve never been involved with the with the membership as much as sean sean’s on facebook He even talked to the members on facebook and addressed their questions Um, whereas the other caucus or the other administration, they would never tell what’s on the table.

Eric Truss: Um, and they would just bring those contracts and say, this is the best we can do. Whereas Sean says, this is where we’re at. Um, you know, here, we’re on Facebook Live. What do you think about this? 

Teddy Ostrow: The result has been a member shipmore activated than many workers have ever seen before. Auto workers around the country participated in a first-ever contract campaign at the Big Three leading up to the strike deadline, organizing rallies, practice pickets, and other actions. With and without their local leadership’s support.

Teddy Ostrow: Even the workers who aren’t technically on strike yet, are standing up and doing [00:28:00] what they can to keep the pressure on the Big Three. This includes not working voluntary overtime, as well as solidarity actions, such as member-led caravans circling the striking plants.

Teddy Ostrow: In Toldeo, I stood with the strikers and watched as dozens of Jeeps, Chryslers and GM vehicles arrived in a convoy.

Beth Walls: Support from GM, their local 14 was out here. Just hyping up everybody and showing their support. It was awesome. We’re all one big family. We’ll do what we have to do for one another and support them

Teddy Ostrow: In downtown Detroit, on the first day of the strike, I drove to a UAW rally with Senator Bernie Sanders, Representative Rashida Tlaib, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer and other politicians. The event was a sea of red-shirted UAW members, chanting, dancing, and making their worker power known. Here’s Sean Crawford again of Local 160.

Sean Crawford: I feel inspired, feel hopeful. I think the whole event seemed poetic. You know, it’s a beautiful day here in Detroit. You know, the sky is [00:29:00] blue. You got the people mover track here. Um, I, there’s a ton of folks out. More people than I’ve ever seen at a rally here before.

Teddy Ostrow: After the rally’s speeches, the crowd marched on Jefferson avenue. As we made our way to the GM headquarters at the Renaissance Center. I ran into Ryder Littlejohn, a skilled trades Ford worker at the Stamping Plant In Buffalo, New York. We’d spoken previously to by phone. I asked him

Teddy Ostrow: Have you ever seen unity like this in your union? 

Ryder Littlejohn: Not in a long, long time. This is what the UAW has always been about. We’ve always been a progressive, organized union fighting for the working class. And it’s good to see it come back

Teddy Ostrow: Off the recording, as we crowded onto the steps of the GM HQ, workers chants’ grew louder. Ryder turned to me, shook his head in disbelief, and said, “Solidarity. Isn’t it beautiful?”

 (Audio of chants) 

Teddy Ostrow: When I got home to Brooklyn a week into the strike, I have [00:30:00] to admit I was little sad to leave the picket line. The energy was infectious. The solidarity, beautiful, as Ryder put it.

Teddy Ostrow: But only a few days later, on September 22, I got my chance to join the strike again.

 (Car engine noise) 

Teddy Ostrow: All right, so here’s the deal. 38 PDC, that’s Parts Distribution Centers, uh, just went up across the nation from GM and Stellantis. It was just announced at 10 a. m. The UAW, Sean Fain, through Facebook live stream said, look, uh, forward. We’re making progress there. We’re not going to strike any more plants, but GM and Stellantis, they’re not getting with the program.

Teddy Ostrow: So now I’m heading to the location at Tappan, New York, PDC. Um, and yeah, we’re going to go find out what’s going on on the strike line in the second round of the UAW standup strikes.

 (car noise) 

Teddy Ostrow: I pulled up to Chrysler the picket line at 1pm, an hour [00:31:00] after roughly 80 workers walked off the job. As I said, Tappan wasn’t the only plant called to “stand up” on September 22. 5,000 other workers across the country – in California, Wisconsin, Georgia, and so on – also hit the picket line.

Teddy Ostrow: Tappan, where we stood, is in the New York metro area, so as you may expect, cost of living is incredibly high. It was no wonder that wage increases were at the top of the strikers’ demands.

Teddy Ostrow: I spoke to Celeste Miller, shop chair of UAW Local 3039, and Jeffrey Purcell, the local’s president, who still drives the forklift at the plant. 

Celeste Miller: Uh, when I started 30 years ago… Um, they’re going, I started at 15. 74, now when you start, you start at 15. 78, that’s 30 years later, that’s ridiculous.

Jeffrey Purcell: I’m a single father of three, so my family is on a line with this as well. Uh, we. Majority of people who work here [00:32:00] commute about a 45 minutes to an hour from here.

Jeffrey Purcell: I personally live in Pennsylvania. I drive an hour and a half to work every day, every day, a hundred miles each way, a hundred miles, a hundred miles back home every day. For, you know, to basically have a life, I wanna have a house for my kids, I wanna live a good life that was sudden you used to be able to work here and afford.

Jeffrey Purcell: But now with the way that the wages has been going, the economy gets more and more expensive. Inflation is through the roof, and our raises are reflecting that

Teddy Ostrow: Workers like Jeffrey and Celeste deal with a lot of the same issues as other auto workers, but some of them also have been pushed into yet another tier of their own. Their plant, like the 37 others called out on September 22, is a parts distribution center. Their job is supply parts and accessories to car dealerships. According to GM and Stellantis, that means they deserve an inferior wage scale than assembly workers. 

Teddy Ostrow: It was an interesting choice by the union to ask specifically these plants to stand up, and [00:33:00] to spare Ford of any more walk outs.

Dan Vicente: We didn’t walk out on any Ford facilities today because Ford actually put forward a proposal.

Dan Vicente: Uh, yesterday it was the first offer that we felt wasn’t a straight up insult. 

Teddy Ostrow: That’s Dan Vicente. You may remember his voice from a previous Upsurge episode. He’s the director of UAW Region 9. A UAWD member, he was elected by members earlier this year on the reform slate. He’s on the executive board, so he actually has a say in the strike strategy.

Dan Vicente: And we were like, look, exact, that’s what we’re talking about. We want to bargain. We want to get real. So if you start getting real, we’re not looking to shut down the whole country’s, uh, auto industry, the big three.

Dan Vicente: But if you want to keep paying us poverty wages, well, it is what it is.

Teddy Ostrow: Dan’s referencing the fact in bargaining, Ford actually conceded to a lot of what the UAW is demanding. They agreed to abolish one of their wage tiers, to reinstate COLA, to give workers [00:34:00] the right to strike over plant closures, and to hire all current temps within 90 days. 

Teddy Ostrow: The union hasn’t declared victory yet. There’s still more work to do. But admittedly, those concessions are pretty remarkable just a week in. GM and Stellantis, on the other hand, didn’t budge on most of the major issues, so the union expanded strikes solely against them.

Dan Vicente: I was advocating for we shut everything down and we chain ourselves to machines. So I’m glad that we have, exactly.

Dan Vicente: And I’m glad we work through these things and we discuss this to me makes the most reasonable sense. 

Dan Vicente: we have the most leverage right before a strike because, and that’s why the companies come in the 11th hour and want to get something done because they don’t know, is this really going to happen?

Dan Vicente: Is it not right now? We’re keeping them off balance. 

Dan Vicente: we could have taken out the engine and transmission plants right away and shut down everything, choked everything. We didn’t do that. We took down [00:35:00] assembly operations, final assembly plants or stamping plant to send a message like.

Dan Vicente: We’re going to come after your bottom line, like that’s what this is, but we don’t want to go all out on strike. We want fair and equitable contracts. Our people are workers. We want to be at work. It’s just we don’t want to have to struggle all the goddamn time for every single cent. 

Teddy Ostrow: The strategy, in other words, was to leverage the union’s threat of a strike, while keeping workers ready and excited to potentially join in. Now, with the parts depots out on strike, workers can be joined by supporters on their pickets across the nation. The strike has been brought to all of our backyards. And on September 26, the UAW even pressured President Joe Biden to join the picket line in Michigan. This was the first time in history that a sitting US president joined a strike line.

Teddy Ostrow: It’s too early to tell, but so far, it does appear, that the union’s strategy [00:36:00] is working.

Dan Vicente: I applaud Ford for putting forward something today that we can actually start working with.

Dan Vicente: I think that shows real good faith and us not shutting down more facilities and Ford shows that we’re both acting in good faith here and want to get something done. 

Teddy Ostrow: Now it’s time for GM and Stellantis to step up to the plate. 

Dan Vicente: Uh, GM Stellantis, you want to keep playing this game? We’ll shut the whole thing down. But I mean, we’re not afraid to do it. We don’t want to do it, but if you want to get in a street fight with street people, that’s a dumb thing to do.

Dan Vicente: If you’re from wall street

Teddy Ostrow: You just listened to episode 15 of The Upsurge. 

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

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The podcast was edited by myself

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I’m Teddy Ostrow. Thanks for listening and catch you next time

The hot labor summer isn’t over yet. 

In a week’s time, the United Auto Workers may launch a strike of 150,000 of its members if the Big Three automakers – Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis (formerly Chrysler) – fail to meet the workers’ demands in a new contract by September 14. 

You see, the Big Three made a quarter trillion dollars over the past decade. And with non-union electric vehicle and battery manufacturing on the rise in the United States, this may be a make or break moment for the union. So, with a more militant leadership at its helm, the UAW is demanding more than they have in a long time: serious wage increases; the elimination of tiers; the return of pensions, COLA, and retiree healthcare; and a 32-hour workweek.

For this episode, we unpack the auto workers’ demands, their stakes for the auto industry and the broader working class, and the burgeoning EV transition. We also explore how during this round of negotiations, the union is doing something it hasn’t done in a very long time. Inspired by the Teamsters, the UAW is conducting a contract campaign, with rallies, practice pickets, and all.

To discuss all this and more, we spoke with two UAW activists in Metro Detroit. Luigi Gjokaj was an assembly worker at Stellantis since 2010 and is the newly elected vice president of UAW Local 51. Jessie Kelly is a skilled moldmaker at General Motors and alternate committeeperson at UAW Local 160.

You’ll also hear from auto workers in Metro Detroit and Chicago, who attended rallies and practice pickets to drum up unity before the strike deadline.

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Hosted by Teddy Ostrow
Edited by Teddy Ostrow
Produced by NYGP & Ruby Walsh, in partnership with In These Times & The Real News
Music by Casey Gallagher
Cover art by Devlin Claro Resetar

Transcript

Jessie Kelly: That’s what’s at stake. It’s making sure that my son doesn’t have to go through the same struggles that I went through, doesn’t have to go through working 80 hours a week and missing out on his children’s life to make sure that he can somehow secure an opportunity just to have a middle class life, but still live paycheck to paycheck.

Luigi Gjokaj: Well, we’re not asking anymore. We got sick of putting our hand up and asking and asking, and now all these hands are balling up into a little fist and we’re saying, “No more.” I mean, how do you have someone with $20, $30, $40 million compensation trying to tell me or one of my union brothers or sisters working right next to me, that, you know what, the $18 an hour they’re making is enough?

Teddy Ostrow: Hello my name is Teddy Ostrow. Welcome to The Upsurge, a podcast about the future of the American labor movement.

This podcast previously focused on the unprecedented labor fight this year at UPS. But now, we’ve shifted our focus to the renewed militancy of the United Auto Workers, the legendary union that in a week’s time may launch a strike of 150,000 of its members at the Big Three automakers. That’s Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis, which was previously Chrysler. 

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

And quick reminder: This is a listener-supported podcast. So please, if you want it to keep going, head on over to patreon.com/upsurgepod and become a monthly contributor today. You can find a link in the description. We cannot do this without you. 

On to the show.

Shawn Fain: These companies have made a quarter of a trillion dollars in the last decade, the thing that they drive for is corporate greed. That’s what this is all about. 

Teddy Ostrow: If you’re an Upsurge listener, you may remember that voice. That’s Shawn Fain, the new, militant president of the United Auto Workers union. 

Shawn Fain: When 26 billionaires have as much wealth as half of humanity, 26 people have as much wealth as half of humanity, we have to turn this system upside down. That does not work for people, period. 

Teddy Ostrow: And that was him talking to me at a July 15th rally in Long Island for the UPS Teamsters, who in a little over a month would go on to ratify a contract that reaped significant concessions from the package giant. 

Fain was there in solidarity, but his own union had just started high-stakes negotiations of their own. That is, for the contract that covers nearly 150,000 UAW members at the Big Three automakers nationwide, which expires on September 14. And almost immediately, it became clear that the corporations didn’t want to play ball.

Shawn Fain: I’m gonna file it in its proper place ’cause that’s where it belongs, the trash ’cause that’s what it is.

Teddy Ostrow: You can’t see it but that was a Facebook Live clip of Fain throwing the contract proposals by Stellantis, which were riddled with concessions to the company, into the trashcan. He did the same with Ford’s proposals just a couple weeks later.

And just last week, the union filed unfair labor practice charges against Stellantis and GM for failing to bargain in good faith.

See, the Big Three automakers, as Fain told me, made a quarter trillion dollars over the past decade. Yes, a trillion with a “T.” That means they’ve more than recovered from the bottoms they hit during the Great Recession, when the union acquiesced to several rounds of concessions to prop up the companies.

So with a more militant union leadership at its the helm, the UAW is demanding more from the profit-flush Big 3 than they have in a long time. 

That includes wage increases of over 40%, in line with the increases the companies’ executives saw over the last four years. A big one: the elimination of wage and benefit tiers, much like the Teamsters demanded and won at UPS. 

And among several other important demands, they’re also looking to reinstate defined benefit pensions, retiree medical benefits, and cost-of-living wage increases that go up as inflation does. All of those are benefits UAW members used to have, but they’ve been taken away over the past 15 years.

So in the past couple weeks, UAW members hit the ballot box and authorized the union to call a strike by 97%. And the leadership has indicated that they may be willing to strike all three companies at once, if their demands aren’t met. 

Shawn Fain: We’re gonna get it done, we’ll get it done by any means necessary.

Teddy Ostrow: That means 150,000 autoworkers may be hitting the picket line, as soon as next week. September 14th is the strike deadline.

Now, this is a big deal. With non-union electric vehicle and battery manufacturing on the rise in the United States, this feels like a make or break moment for the union. How will the union expand its membership, improve working peoples’ lives, if its existing members are on the back foot?

We’ll unpack more context in future shows, but in this episode, we’re focused on how during this round of negotiations, the UAW is doing something it hasn’t done in a very long time: a contract campaign.

Shawn Fain: We’ve got 25 days to the deadline, so I got a question for you: Are you ready to rumble?

Teddy Ostrow: For this episode I spoke at length with two UAW activists, Jessie Kelly and Luigi Gjokaj, about the workers’ demands, and how union leaders and rank-and-file are organizing the membership to unite around them.

But in preparation for the interview, I spoke to workers around the country: in Kansas City, Chicago, Detroit, Louisville and Buffalo. Some of them even sent me audio from local actions, but all of them told me the same thing: They’ve never seen anything like this at their union. 

Here’s Paul Davidson, a Local 212 union steward at Stellantis, who attended a large campaign rally in Metro Detroit.

Paul Davidson: The unity is breathtaking. Yeah. We need to get this back going. It’s good to see unions are getting back strong again and doing what’s necessary by showing unity. 

Teddy Ostrow: Inspired by the Teamsters, autoworkers even set up practice pickets in several states. 

Chants: Just practicing for a just contract.

Teddy Ostrow: And lots of workers are getting involved in the union for the first time. In Chicago, Ford assembly worker Danny Morales explained:

Danny Morales: I was basically motivated to currently get involved with the union. I’m a member of the strike committee here at Local 551. I was inspired by the Teamsters with the way they were able to band together and fight. And win themselves a better contract. So I’m looking for that exact same fight with my brothers and sisters to get what we deserve.

Teddy Ostrow: To discuss all this and more, I was lucky enough to speak with two UAW activists in Metro Detroit who have been putting in the work to prepare their union family to strike — if they have to. 

Luigi Gjokaj is the newly elected vice president of UAW Local 51. Before then he was an assembly worker at Stellantis since 2010. Jessie Kelly is a skilled trades moldmaker at General Motors and alternate committeeperson at UAW Local 160, which is kind of like a shop steward for those unfamiliar with the lingo. 

Jessie, who is a member of the Unite All Workers for Democracy caucus, was actually on strike for 40 days in 2019 with 40,000 of her GM coworkers, an action she explains in our interview didn’t really win much for the union. This time could be different.

We cover a lot of ground in this interview, and if you want more context before hopping in, I do encourage you to go listen to Episode 5 of The Upsurge and our July 13th bonus episode with UAW leaders Brandon Mancilla and Dan Vicente.

Jessie Kelly and Luigi Jo Kai, welcome to The Upsurge.

Luigi Gjokaj: Thanks for having us. 

Jessie Kelly: Thank you so much for using this platform to draw attention to our fight. 

Teddy Ostrow: To start, can you guys just briefly introduce yourselves? Tell us your story, your automaker in the union, you know, what positions have you held, where and in which local unions.

Jessie Kelly: So I started 14 years ago at the Warren Tech Center. I started as a temporary on-call housekeeper with a unit called Airmark, which is a third party unit. I worked my way up through different sectors of the UAW. I ended up being the committee person for Airmark, and then I sat as a trustee on the executive board for Local 160.

Inside Aramark, I was a housekeeper, and then I was an industrial painter, and then I was maintenance. And then I took a temporary position inside of General Motors. I worked for both Aramark and General Motors for three years before I finally accepted a full-time position at General Motors as an apprentice. And now I am a skilled trades mold maker inside of the Plaster Shop. 

Teddy Ostrow: And Luigi. 

Luigi Gjokaj: I started in 2010 as a SVR, which stands for Summer Vacation Replacement. so when we first got hired in and got the email that, “Hey, you’re gonna work for Chrysler,” it was as a summertime, basically after 119 days, you were let go, you were just a summer replacement.

And once we got there, they actually told us after our 119 days, we’d be full time, I kind of started off like any other regular worker would, just kind of came in, did my job, went home, didn’t care too much to get involved with things like the union and stuff. I was like, I’m kind of one of the guys that just does his job every day.

I don’t need my union. And my favorite phrase to tell people is, “You never think you’re gonna need your union until you need your union.” And it was actually, I didn’t actually need them. Someone else did. And I had brought awareness to a situation that was going on and really saw what the power of collective bargaining and having a union can do.

‘Cause you know, being a non-union person my whole life, previous to that, even though my grandfather had worked at Chrysler for 30 odd years, it was so different from non-union shops. You could call your steward, they could come correct the action. It wasn’t just arbitrarily “You go do this ’cause I told you so,” it was like, “No, there’s a contract. You’re gonna uphold it. You’re gonna abide by it. And if you don’t, there’s a grievance that’s gonna be written.” And that’s kind of what sparked me wanting to get involved a little bit.

So I ran for the executive board, at Local 7, which is Jefferson North Assembly Plant, affectionately called JNAP. And at the time we were building the Jeep Grand Cherokee and the Dodge Durango, after winning a term on the executive board, I transferred over to the Mac assembly plant and they were the first new plant built in Detroit in probably 30 some odd years. They were gonna be doing the Grand Cherokee, the new model, after the EO and Fiat merger, which became Stellantis. But I’ll probably not call it that. The rest of the podcast, it’s still Chrysler. Once I got there, I was appointed as the backup committee person, because we had some Covid related issues that had hit at the time when Covid was just about to start ravaging the whole country and shut the whole place down.

I spoke up real loud about what was going on, and the committee person at the time was like, “Hey, this is a kindred spirit right here.” A guy who’s gonna speak out and not be afraid, you know, to put it all on the line, was the backup committee person who was acting as shop steward. And then I ran for vice president and I am the newly elected vice president of my Local. So, real excited about that. 

Teddy Ostrow: What we’re dealing with here and what I want to talk to you guys about is something we haven’t seen from the United Auto Workers in a really long time, certainly in my lifetime and decades, maybe you guys too. And that’s a contract campaign. We saw this quite triumphantly at the Teamsters Union at UPS this year. We covered that very heavily on this show. When this posts, we’ll roughly be a week out from the September 14th contract expiration, and strike deadline at the Big Three automakers.

Can you guys unpack for me what you’re doing right now? I know you guys are really hard at work, busy organizing across locals within your region, but also more broadly across the union. You’re organizing the rank-and-file for a contract campaign, and as I’ve been told, you know, the UAW has a culture of abiding by a strike.

You guys will strike if you’re called for one, but not necessarily this grassroots organizing culture, which it seems that you guys are trying to cultivate right now. So maybe in explaining this contract campaign, you can compare this to what you’ve seen in prior contracts too.

Jessie Kelly: Okay. So it’s such an intricate question. I wanna make sure to do it justice because you’re absolutely correct. We have never, ever seen a contract campaign before. I’m a third generation UAW member. My mom was extremely involved, especially at my local, Local 160. So I walked my first picket line at five years old. I’ve seen the newspaper strike, so it was kind of ingrained in me. I remember being a member of General Motors in 2019 when a strike was called, and I was bestowed with the responsibility of saying, “Get everything together the week prior to the contract deadline in case we go out on strike, but we’re not gonna go on strike, so it’s gonna be fine.”

Right? Like, just get together everything that you can just as an in-case so we can show the international union that we’re checking the boxes and everything’s okay. I go, okay, I’ve never been on a strike myself. So I said, okay, I do some rough scheduling. I do some rough, like Google doc-ing, whatever it may be.

And I remember even calling up the officials saying like, “Should there be a strike come Sunday, we’re gonna need you to do this.” And they laughed, right? They’re like, “Okay, we’ll see you at work on Monday.” And no one believed it. And then all of a sudden, boom, my president, my chairman go down and they get told we’re going on a national strike.

Every single plant is going out, all 40,000 members. And I’m the chair of communications at my local. So, I remember telling people through the text messaging system, a national strike was called, please report at the hall at this time. Tomorrow we’ll discuss what we’re gonna do.

And people were just in shock. And then there wasn’t any communication coming down either. So we called the national strike. There was no plan, there was no communication. Nobody knew what they were striking for. And it’s hard to build that solidarity and create that momentum and keep everybody going, especially for what ended up being a 40 day strike when you are not even sure what you’re striking for.

So the idea that this time around we have a member’s demand list and we know exactly what we’re fighting for. We have the ability to set our membership up and educate them on the things that we’re fighting for prior to the expiration of the deadline. It’s so different in such a positive way, and it really is building like this sense of grassroots efforts and solidarity that I’ve never seen before inside of the UAW. I have seen it at the Detroit newspaper. I have seen it in UPS, but I’ve never seen it at the UAW and I think they’re ready for it. I think it’s a very positive change. All of my members are telling me like, this is crazy to know exactly the things that we’re asking for prior to the expiration. 

Teddy Ostrow: Right. Thank you so much for setting that up like that. Luigi, what, what is that translating to in terms of actions in the union? What are the kinds of things you guys are doing, to organize the workers and get them ready? 

Luigi Gjokaj: I mean, piggybacking a little bit off of Jessie there, we’ve never seen this kind of mobilization, this kind of action and this kind of support from the top down. Whereas previously it was kind of from the bottom up, right? We got our top international president, the leader so to speak, of the entire UAW, talking to us every single week like we are right now.

I mean, you didn’t get that kind of access before. He’s doing Zooms, he’s doing Facebook live. I know for our Vice President, Richie Boyer, who’s the lead for the Chrysler Division, is doing a weekly update on, “Hey, here’s what’s going on.” I mean, I’ve never felt this kind of enthusiasm in the UAW and it’s Chrysler, GM, Ford, white, black man, woman, doesn’t matter, immigrant, non-immigrant. Like, it’s all walks of life. And we all have this common brotherhood, sisterhood, and just this unity of, “Hey, we’re going to get what we should have never, ever, ever lost.” And it has a feel, honestly, like the sixties, like everything comes full circle.

Well, we’re not asking anymore. We got sick of putting our hand up and asking and asking, and now all these hands are balling up into a little fist and we’re saying, “No more.” 

I mean, how do you have someone with $20, $30, $40 million in compensation trying to tell me or one of my union brothers or sisters working right next to me, that the $18 an hour they’re making is enough?

Maybe it was 30 years ago, but the cost of milk, since that’s what everyone always talks about, has gone up. The price of everything has gone up. Price of their vehicles continue to go up, but my wages remain stagnant. and people are fed up now. We’re not just taking it as, “Okay, no problem.”

We’ll wait. Another contract. We kept hearing that in our career. How many times did we hear that? “Oh, you guys will get there eventually. Don’t worry, you won’t get in this one, but you’ll get it in the next one and you’ll get it in the next one.”

We were in a position where we were hurting, right? The company was hurting. And who did they ask to take the blow for them? The worker. They didn’t ask the CEO, they didn’t ask the stockholder, they asked the American taxpayer. “Yo, take this hit for us and we’ll make you guys whole. We’ll do the right thing.” And they didn’t. And now we’re kind of like, “Yo man, 12, 13 years in, we’re gonna get everything back that we never should have lost.” And we’re not actually asking for a hell of a lot more. We’re just asking to be made back even. 

Teddy Ostrow: And just so people understand what you’re talking about there, the Big Three automakers, I believe all three, beginning in 2007, there was sort of this concession that created tiers in the contract that new workers would not receive pensions and they would not receive retiree healthcare.

This was worsened over time, especially as then Chrysler and GM filed for bankruptcy and were bailed out. Ford narrowly avoided it, through a loan that it had secured earlier. However, it was just concession after concession to sort of prop up these companies that had basically gone down under, so as you said, the taxpayer, but also the workers who really had to take the fall.

You were talking, Luigi, about all this solidarity that you’re seeing and, and that is being built, right? You guys are putting that together. You guys are doing the organizing work to make that happen for this contract campaign. So I wanna hear about the rallies that have been going on over the past couple weeks. The practice pickets, 10 minute meetings. What are the ways that you guys are actually on the shop floor, in the union hall, getting people to get on the same page for the first time in a very long time. 

Jessie Kelly: We’ve seen UPS and we’ve seen the practice pickets and I had never seen anything like that. I’ve seen rallies before. I had seen contract campaigns, but I had never seen actual physical signs of saying like, just practicing for a just contract. And I remember like being at my house and just scrolling through Facebook and a picture came up of a UPS driver, and he was holding a sign that said, just practicing for a just contract.

And I was like, “Whoa, this is incredible. This is like honestly the cutest thing that I have ever seen.” And I like cried, right? Like I cried real tears and I was like, this is so lame. But I was like, that is adorable. We need to do that. Like we need to do that. We need to build solidarity. I remember in 2019, some of my members had never been on a strike line, so you are asking them to, like Luigi said in earlier, to play the Super Bowl when they never even went through the tryouts, right?

You’re like, boom, boom, strike. Go out there. win us a good contract when you’ve never even tried this out before or like flexing your muscles before you even went to the gym. so when they were doing that, I was like, “Wow, what a way to bring solidarity and recognition and just an understanding of, ‘this is what we’re gonna do eventually if we have to.’”

Not only that, you’re showing the company that you’re willing to do it and that you’re willing to do it on your own time. I’ll work a 10 hour shift, or I’ll work a 12 hour shift and I’ll still go out there with my brothers and sisters because that’s how important it’s to me. I think that that’s very eye-opening to everybody, and it was just thrilling to see.

When I seen and I was like, “We have to do this. We have to adopt this method. This is fantastic.” We wanted to do that and that my particular event ended up turning into a rally, which was phenomenal. We had a rally at region one and I think like…

Luigi Gjokaj: That was the first rally I’d seen like that ever.

Jessie Kelly: Yeah. Maybe a thousand people. I think it was a thousand. It might have been over. 

Luigi Gjokaj: It was a thousand. 

Jessie Kelly: There was a lot of people. 

We walked out there together and it was just packed. I mean, people were under trees and they were on the hill and I was like, “Whoa.” Like. They’re ready. That’s such an amazing thing and an amazing feeling. Even to just look out and see everybody in their red on a Sunday and during like a Woodward Dream cruise weekend where they could be out cruising their car and instead they’re there at a rally.

It was just incredible. And the day prior I did an educational class at my hall, preparing my members for a strike. And 300 people had shown up to that. And like even one of my own committee men were like, “Don’t do it that day. You’re gonna get six people tops.” And I remember we walked into the hall and they were like, “Whoa, there’s like 300, 400 members here.”

Because they just wanna hear about what’s gonna happen. They wanna hear what we’re gonna fight for. They wanna hear why they think that we can win this fight. And so it was just like having those two days in a row showed me that like, our membership is ready. Like Shawn Fain said, they’re fed up, right?

I knew I was fed up a long time ago, but like, it’s just this incredible realization when you realize everybody is just as mad as you are and they’re ready to fight for it. It builds something inside of you where you’re like, “I’m not alone on the ship. We’re all ready for a different standard of living and we’re all ready for a different life…”

And I mean, if that’s not solidarity, I don’t know what is. And if the union isn’t collective action, it’s nothing else. Right? That’s what the whole premise of a union is, is just collective action, and they’re ready to join in collective action and win this. So it’s incredible. 

Teddy Ostrow: And I think that was really evident, not only at the rallies we saw, which I believe were in Chicago, Metro Detroit, Louisville as well.

But in the practice pickets. And I know Luigi, you led a practice picket, in Detroit, with your local, maybe it was involving more locals than just yours. Can you talk a little bit about that? What, what was that like? 

Luigi Gjokaj: So I forgot exactly how we came up with the idea. but it definitely came from the UPS practice picket. That’s where we first saw it, and I was like, “Oh my God, this is genius.” It’s, like Jessie had said earlier, I’m like, we’re scrimmaging before the big game because we have so many members that have never been on strike.

 So, you know, it’s always like, well, what do you do during the strike?

Some people are like, “Oh, you just walk around in the line. It’s real easy. There’s nothing to it.” Well, I can tell you secondhand, right? Because she can tell you firsthand what it’s like from day one to week one to week three to the rain, to worrying about the snow to being cold as hell at night. I know secondhand what it was like seeing the enthusiasm.

The stuff happened on the first days and, and [we were] like, “wow, I didn’t realize that would happen.” Oh man, I thought the cops would be on our side because they’re union too. And instead they’re over there harassing the people for exercising their freedom to picket, to strike, to speak.

And it was just like, “Wow, man. Like, I’m glad I’m here to see this [at a] boots on the ground at ground level so I know what to expect if we’re up next. 

With the practice picket, what UPS did was awesome. I think it was great. They got a really, really good contract without having to go through a strike. So when I brought this to my local, to my membership about a practice picket, people were just so on board.

You had a lot of people that weren’t, some of the older folks, [saying] we don’t need to do that. And it’s not gonna be a kind of same thing like Jessie ran into in 19, all of a sudden, bam, strike. What do we do? So I didn’t want that to happen. You know, having spoken to her about her experience, I wanted it to be better.

So I got with some of the other mouthpieces in the plant, some in leadership positions, some not. And this thing turned into something bigger than I could have imagined. I mean, it started off as a regular local practice picket rally. And at the end of the day we had the international president over there, and supporters from multiple locals.

The neighborhood when they saw us marching was honking their horns and waving at us and cheering us on. It made every single news station locally, nationally. I mean the Wall Street Journal’s writing about it, CBS News, Fox. I mean, they hit everywhere. And I think it probably was playing in France where our CEO’s sitting in his chateau.

I’m sure it was hitting at the mansion, the second mansion that our COO had in Mexico that, “Hey baby, east side of Detroit, the heart of Motor City is alive and well, and we’re ready.” 

Teddy Ostrow: Awesome. Yeah, thanks for going through that. It seems like you guys aren’t only doing practice pickets, like you said, it’s rallies, even down to like the small stuff. Not every local is necessarily on board with doing some of these bigger actions, but rank and filers are taking it upon themselves to, before a shift or on a break, you know, taking 10 minutes to speak to coworkers, 10 people, 15 people, 30 people about the demands. As I’ve read in places like Labor Notes and I’ve spoken with Chris Budnick down in Kentucky, it really just seems like people are getting involved, in a way that just hasn’t been seen in a very long time. 

I wanna turn to the issues. You guys have rattled off a couple already, but let’s turn to the issues and to the stakes of this fight for you guys, for auto workers, and not only UAW members.

So first, can you guys break down what are the union’s major demands? I know there’s a lot of them, but maybe start with what are the most important ones, to you guys personally, to people in your plants? And really just help listeners understand what the stakes are for workers’ lives and their wellbeing to solve these issues, to overcome the concessions of the past decade or more?

Jessie Kelly: Okay. Yeah. So let’s talk about it. What’s at stake is everything. Not to be so dramatic, but what’s at stake is literally everything. So, I can speak for me. I graduated high school in 2008. I immediately entered the workforce. My mom, although a union member, had three daughters and as a single mom, and could not afford to send us to college.

So, I entered the workforce as NAFTA was in full force inside of the metro Detroit area. So there was zero opportunity for me. I just knew I needed to have a job, so I did whatever I could to secure a job. As I told you earlier in the introduction, I went through so many different ostracized departments inside of the auto industry because even though my mom at 17 could go and join General Motors and make a good middle class living as being a groundskeeper, that wasn’t an option for me and it wasn’t an option for my siblings.

So for me it looked a lot like a third party housekeeper making $11 an hour and being a temp and being an on-call and all of these little ostracized pockets that are just exploiting workers to make the corporations more and more money. and so that’s what’s at stake. It’s making sure that my son doesn’t have to go through the same struggles that I went through, doesn’t have to go through working 80 hours a week and missing out on his children’s life to make sure that he can somehow secure an opportunity just to have a middle class life, but still live paycheck to paycheck. I mean, I’m a lot luckier than most people in my generation, and I still live paycheck to paycheck even though I am doing better than everybody else.

That’s a really sad reality of where the generation that we’re living in and the challenges that this generation faces. So, that’s why I’m so dramatic when I say what’s at stake, it’s everything. Like I said at the rally, like for my son’s generation, it’s not about protecting the American dream or fighting for the American dream. It’s literally like resuscitating it from the dead. It’s up to us to make sure that that’s a reality for the next generations. That they have the ability to have opportunity, that they have the ability to have a hobby, that they have the ability to do more in life than just wake up and work from the moment they’re awake until the moment it’s time for them to sleep.

I don’t wanna see that for him, and I don’t wanna see that for any of our children or any of our future generations, and I don’t wanna see that for us. So this fight really is about that and it’s about the middle class as a whole. Because if we don’t win now we’re, we’re gonna continue to lose and we’re gonna continue to have a race to the bottom 

So that is how big this fight really is. So we’ll talk a little bit about the member’s demands and so I’ll take some, and I think Luigi, you can take some, so we’ll start with eliminating tiers on wages and benefits.

This is a big deal. They found a way to make us pitted against ourselves. The fact that you can do the same exact job next to somebody and make half of the amount of money and a quarter of the benefits, it’s just not okay. It’s just not what’s right. There’s no loyalty in that. And we’re loyal to these companies every single day.

We’re loyal to these companies. We drive their products. We show up to work. We do the best that we can. We risk our health and we risk our time and we’re loyal to them. And they’re saying that you are not even worth half what the person next to you is worth and we’re not gonna give you benefits. And I think that in society we get really caught up in how much somebody makes in their hourly rate.

And we’re fighting for so much more than that. When I was a temp, I made half as much. My health insurance was only 25 percent as good as theirs. That’s a problem because just because your attempt does not mean that you’re not risking your health just as much as the person next to you.

I was breathing in the same toxic chemicals. I was doing the same backbreaking work, but I wasn’t allowed to have the same health insurance. That’s a huge problem. So that’s one of our top ones. Substantial wage increases. This is for anybody in the working class, period. Inflation has rapidly grown and we need to be on par with that.

Our standard of living, like I said, went down 13% since our last agreement. We can’t afford the same lifestyle that we could afford four years ago. So we deserve the same wage increases that we know our CEOs are giving themselves. Restore COLA, the cost of living adjustment.

So that’s just that our wages are protected from inflation. So there’s a quick calculation that can be done every three months like we’ve seen inside of John Deere that says, this is how much more you need to make to just have the same standard of living that you had three months ago. And that’s all we’re asking for is our wages to be protected against inflation.

Defined benefit pensions for all workers and reestablished retiree medical benefits. and this is where I get into reciprocated loyalty. We’re very, very loyal to these companies and we give our whole lives to them. And I mean, I’ve genuinely given my whole life to General Motors and missed out on three years of my son’s life, giving my life to General Motors while I was a temporary employee.

And all we’re asking for in return is that when it is time for us to be done, that they’re loyal to us and that we can retire and we can have health insurance when we retire. And we’re risking our health for them for 30, 40, 50 years, however long we stay in these plans. And we just wanna make sure that after all of that time and all the things we were exposed to and all of the backbreaking work that we still have health insurance when we retire.

I mean, it’s not that big of an ask, it’s just reciprocated loyalty. 

Teddy Ostrow: Just to pause there for a second, the retiree, medical benefits, the pension, these were offered to workers who began their work at these auto companies before 2007 and they were taken away.

This is part of the many, many tiers that we’ve seen at these companies that are pitting workers against each other. I also think it speaks to something you alluded to, Jessie, which is that these jobs, some of them harm your body, with life altering injuries…Maybe we could just linger on that for a bit, and get to some of the other demands as well. But can you just speak to that, what this job is like in the plant?

Luigi Gjokaj: So I got seven nice holes in my arm from a workplace injury and, thankfully because I had a union steward and a union safety rep, it was documented as a workplace injury.

Initially they did not want to say it happened at work. Even though there were witnesses there, there was safety protocol in place. This rack was supposed to have been fixed. There was a documented problem rack. They just didn’t want to have the comp claim against the plant. and had it been a non-union workshop, a lot of things could have happened, and trust me, they try like hell and unfortunately sometimes get away with it, even in union shops. but that injury happened to me a little over four years ago. Before that I was a professional boxer and mixed martial artist. So you know, that training is rigorous. You put your body through hell.

I’d never had surgery before in my entire life. Broken nose, a couple scratches, maybe some stitches here and there, but I never actually had to have complete reconstructive surgery on a body part. And that’s what happened, just from somebody not following the protocol that they were supposed to at work.

I wasn’t able to hold my daughter for the first two weeks of her life in this right arm. My strong arm. I had a one and a half year old at the time, so my kids were about 13 months apart. So I was grabbing the one year old in one arm. And, you know, my daughter’s crying. I can’t get her outta the bassinet, I gotta set him down, and then he’s crying. Gotta pick her up, put her in one arm. And it wasn’t my fault. It was the company’s fault. They didn’t do what they were supposed to do. Right? They want me to come into work every single day, do my job, right, every single day. And I’m not even gonna get an ‘attaboy, a pat on the back. And I don’t want that. We really don’t. We’re not asking for a lot.

We’re not selfish people. I’m not expecting to come to work every day: “Oh, thank you for coming to work. Thank you for doing your job.” Just let me do my job and let me go home. The way I came in, in one piece and that day it didn’t happen, and I still got lingering injuries that happened here to here and there.

But you know what? We battle on, we truck on, we do what we gotta do. And I think that’s kind of like the theme for the whole thing. We just want to be able to keep on keeping on. And the way everything is right now. I mean, we barely got our heads above water. Now. Where do they expect us to go after 30 years of that? I’m 13 years into it. I went in as the best shape of my life. Mind you, as a professional athlete, I’ve got 17 more years. I don’t know what the residual effects of the job are gonna have. So if I give you 30, you should be able to give me a pension. 

Teddy Ostrow: Jessie, you were talking about loyalty, and Luigi, you’re talking about working at a company for 30 years. To do that sometimes, even if you’re able to do that, we have auto workers who are moving 1, 2, 3, 4, I don’t even know how many times because of these companies closing plants.

It’s more than just a plant. It’s more than people just losing jobs. This is almost the closure, the sort of devastation of entire communities. And I think it’s something like 65 plant closures between these three companies in the past 20 years. What are you guys demanding with regard to this? How does this affect people? 

Luigi Gjokaj: So when a plant closes, it devastates an entire community. We don’t gotta look any further back than Belvedere assembly, right?

That plant kind of was responsible for the entire town in one way or another, right? The workers got their wages from the plant, from working at the plant. The city got some tax increase from taxing the workers’ paycheck. ‘Cause remember they gave incentives to the corporation, right?

So corporate welfare is cool, right when they want it. But notwithstanding that they got their wages from the company, then they go out and spend that money at a local diner at the grocery store, at the movie theater, take the kids out to the park to an event, and that money stays within the community, and everyone thrives in one shape or another. If you look at the Great Recession…when these plants were idled to one shift or to a skeleton crew, it’s not really running as much. Everybody felt it. Everybody in metro Detroit, ’cause we’re an automotive town, right?

We’re an automotive state. Everyone in Michigan felt it, it might’ve been a recession everywhere else, but we were going through a depression, you know, here in the metro Detroit area, and it had a ripple effect across the entire country. I think right around that time, people started realizing how important manufacturing was, and we started looking at the raw end of deals we were getting.

And it was directly from the corporations, right? Because they’re not gonna just shut down a plant and cut their own throat and all of a sudden say, you know, this profitable product we have, we’re just gonna stop building it. We’re done. No. What they do is they move it somewhere. They can build it cheaper.

And then you displace all those workers, whether it be you move it to a different state and have people trek halfway across their country, uproot their lives and their families, and tell them, well, if you don’t go to this plant here, then you can just consider yourself terminated, right? ‘Cause we’re getting a better tax incentive over here.

Or they’re uprooting the entire plant and the product as they did in Belvedere, in Illinois, and they’re now building it in Mexico, right? Nothing against my Mexican automotive brothers and sisters over there. We’re fighting for their wages as well, right? We want them brought to our standard of living as well, right?

Because if we’re making the same amount of money now, they can’t whipsaw us across the country, across the continent, It’s one thing to whipsaw internally amongst each other. It’s another when you can do it across the border because of how laws are structured. 

Another thing I’d love to just touch on, and I know I’m kind of jumping around here. It moved to Mexico and the price of that vehicle never went down. Not one penny, actually, as a slap in the face to the American consumer. It went up. Why?

Because the company has a built-in cost of living. They have their own version of COLA, move it somewhere else, charge a little more every single year. When we came in as tier twos, as temporary workers, that half pay. Okay. The price of that vehicle never went down. It kept going up and going up and going up and going up.

It is the literal definition of, of runaway corporatism and corporate greed. It’s just to maximize the profits and squeeze as much blood out of that rock as you can.

Jessie Kelly: So I just wanna talk to that a little bit too, because I just want the listener to imagine themselves, waking up tomorrow in Youngstown, Ohio and hearing that Lordstown is closing down, you’ve given 30 years of loyalty to General Motors inside of Youngtown, Ohio. And you wake up and you hear this, you hear the blazer, instead of going to Youngstown is gonna go to Mexico and they’re shutting down, or I’m sorry. ‘Cause they get real creative with language, so they’re gonna allocate your plant.

‘Cause that doesn’t mean we’re, we’re shutting it down. We’re just gonna allocate it so that we’re not legally liable for the repercussions of our actions. So we’re gonna allocate the plant and all of those workers wake up and they find out they don’t have a job tomorrow, and they’re like, “Okay, I have to follow my job.”

So they’re left with a decision of leaving the only place that they’ve ever known and leaving their spouse, and leaving their children possibly and uprooting their whole entire lives and the whole life that they built, even though they always did the right thing, right, they graduated and they got a job and they were loyal to a company and they always did the right thing.

And it didn’t matter that they did the right thing. They have a decision to make, “Do I move halfway across the country to keep my job and keep my pension and keep my health insurance and be able to provide for my family, or do I stay here and rot because there’s nothing left in this community for me.”

So they say, “I’m gonna leave. I’m gonna follow my job, and I’m gonna go to Missouri, or I’m gonna go to Arlington, or I’m gonna go to Detroit.” So they’re like, “Let me put my house on the market.” Well, now their house just depreciated in value $65,000 overnight because everybody else just put their house on the market too, because everybody else has to follow their job.

It just decimates entire communities. I know for Youngstown there was even like talks about closing the public school system because there was gonna be no more tax dollars to be able to provide the public school system inside of that community because General Motors made a decision on an executive board to allocate the blazer strictly to Mexico where they could exploit the workers instead of to Youngstown where they had legacy costs.

And when we say legacy costs, we’re talking about just the cost of a worker. 

So one of our demands is that we can strike over plant closures. We need the ability to strike over plant closures because there’ve been 65 plant closures amongst the Big Three. And those are 65 communities that have been destroyed by a simple decision and an executive board to stay competitive and to make Wall Street happy.

Luigi Gjokaj: Yeah. I mean, where else would it make sense that someone can tell you, I’m gonna take something away from you, but you’re gonna keep building it until we’re ready to transition it outta here. No, you’re gonna take it away. Guess what? I’m gonna make it hurt. I’m gonna withhold my labor because you can’t force me to work.

Gimme the ability to withhold my labor from that company so they can’t keep sucking the well dry, because at some point it’s the snake eating its own tail. This is gonna kill us all eventually at some point.

Right? Who the hell’s gonna keep buying this stuff when there’s no more money to buy it? I mean, the auto industry was created by the workforce, right? They paid them enough money to be able to afford the product they bought. 

Teddy Ostrow: Right. One of the ways. One of the methods through which they, they sort of, gouge their prices and keep up their profits is by hiring temps temporary workers. and this brings us to, I think, another really key demand. And Jessie, I know you were a temp. Can you share what that was like and what you guys are trying to do with regard to temps?

Jessie Kelly: Yeah. So that, that brings us to another one of our members’ demands, and that’s to end the abuse of temp workers. I was a temporary employee for three years. I equate that to like literal hell on earth. The three years that I spent as a temporary employee were the most miserable three years that I’ve ever spent as a working person inside of America.

So one of the reasons why I say it was so bad was because you had absolutely no path or no means to an end of when that was going to end for you or when you would achieve the goal of no longer being a temporary employee. And it was just abundantly clear and abundantly understood and accepted that you were an exploited worker for the benefits of the people next to you.

One of the hardest things about being a temp worker was that you were only allowed, three days of time off for the whole entire year. And that was three unpaid days of time off. And so, I was a temp for three years, one of the years that I was a temporary employee. I had the unfortunate circumstance of my grandmother and my aunt dying in the same year.

And, when my grandmother died, I took a day off for her visitation and I took a day off for her funeral because you do not have the protections as a regular employee of having bereavement time. So that counted as two days out of my three days, I was allowed off for the whole entire year. Three weeks later, my aunt died, unfortunately.

And, I remember I went to my boss and I explained my situation. I said, I know I just took these days off, but I gave you a death certificate. I gave you an obituary. You know, my grandma died. Unfortunately, my aunt has died now too. And I would really like to be able to take her viewing off and her funeral off.

And he said, “No, you can only choose one of those days. You’re a temporary employee, you can only choose one of those days.” So I said, okay. So I took the funeral off because for me it felt more important than the viewing. But I remember being at work that day, and I’m welding pre-production vehicles, and I’m just so upset.

I was just so angry. I’m thinking, you know, like, I came in here for the last three years, every single day for the last three years, and I’ve sacrificed that time with my family and I’ve sacrificed that time with my son. And they won’t even say, “Okay, you had a death in your family and you’ve given the proof and you’ve given the records to prove this,” and you can’t even take that time off.

That was so frustrating and I still made it through and I said, okay, it’s gonna be worth it because maybe it ends up with a full-time position. and I remember six months later, I got influenza B. We were still in the same calendar year. So now I have influenza B and I call my supervisor and I say to him, I have influenza B and I just went to the emergency room and I’m very sick and I’ll bring you all of my documentation to prove that I have influenza B.

But I don’t know if it’s good for me to come into work and give everybody else influenza. And he said, “No, you’re a temporary worker. We’ve already had this discussion. You have to come to work.” So I remember I pulled up a trash can next to a pre-production vehicle and I’m spot welding a car.

And as I’m spot welding the car, every couple of welds I have to throw up into a trash can. And I had to do this because if I didn’t, I was gonna lose my job and I was gonna lose the opportunity that I just spent three years trying to achieve. And for me it worked out okay because for me, I went to an apprenticeship and I don’t even wanna say okay, I just wanna say it’s semi worked out.

I was given an opportunity to have a job where I can live paycheck to paycheck [unlike] the other 400 temps that I was with…all of them being laid off overnight. One day all 400 of them walked into a room on a Monday one day after I got my apprenticeship, and they just said, “Sorry, we don’t need your services anymore.”

After some five, six years of being a temporary employee and spending 40 to 60 hours dedicating their lives and showing loyalty to a corporation just to get an opportunity, got walked off of the job site. And I’ll always remember that day because, although I was spared, most of my friends were not.

And they walked them out to their car and they wouldn’t even let them say goodbye to their union brothers and sisters.

That’s the type of thing that we’re fighting for. It’s disgusting. And those are the types of things that made General Motors’ record breaking profits that no one talks about. 

 Teddy Ostrow: Wow. Yeah, I mean it’s just, it’s unbelievable…I’ve heard about someone working six years as a temp, and I know that one of the demands that some people are calling for is to just hire the temps. All the temps right now, and perhaps, you know, if you work 90 days as a temp, that’s the cutoff, you get hired as a permanent worker.

One last demand that I really want to cover, ’cause I think it’s super important not just for auto workers, but as a precedent for the rest of the working class and other unions, is a 32 hour work week at 40 hours pay. This is something that the UAW called for in the 1930s. Why is this so central? 

Luigi Gjokaj: I mean, to people who think that a 32 hour work week is crazy, I mean, it was crazy to talk about a 40 hour work week. At what point do we categorize what is and isn’t insane. You know, at the time when they came up with the 40 hour work week, it was eight hours of work, eight hours of sleep, right?

‘Cause we gotta sleep and eight hours to do whatever the hell you want. And I think everyone’s earned that just as a human being. I mean, we’re so bad about doing what I want to do for eight hours, right? We were all so quick to and excited to grow up and become adults so we could do what we wanted to do, right?

And then we had to get jobs and we were like, “Oh, I can’t do what I wanna do. I gotta do what they want me to do.” So what’s wrong with negotiating? The amount of time that I’m gonna spend you telling me what I have to do, right? Because it’s a necessary evil. We all gotta work, right? 

Anyone who thinks that auto workers just working a 40 hour work week have never stepped foot inside of a plant, you got some places that’ll have a 40 hour here and there. That’s not the case. We’re not working 40 hours. What’s wrong with doing better? 

Jessie Kelly: I wanna talk a little bit about the 32 hour work week too.

We live in a society where technology has disproportionately only advantaged the rich. Over and over and over again, we see that technology has benefited them and the 1% and never benefited us. So we have to worry about our jobs and we have to worry about being laid off because we have AI or we have virtual reality, or we have technology that has overtaken the jobs that we live [off of] and who gets rich off of that.

But the CEOs, these huge corporations, and never us, we don’t get to reap in the benefits of technology growing as a society. We just watch everybody else reap in it. So we eventually have to come to terms where a 32 hour work week is the norm, because if we don’t, we can’t keep everybody gainfully employed.

Because of global warming, we have to transition into EVs. We know this. Maybe EVs aren’t the ultimate answer, but it is the answer today. Unfortunately when we’re talking about the transition into EVs, we’re also talking about losing 40% of the components that it takes to make an internal combustion engine to an EV.

Which means that the people that make those components, their job ceases to exist. And we should celebrate that as a society, right? We should celebrate that and we should say, “Wow, look at us like we’ve realized this, this huge problem that we have in society, and we’ve come together collectively to find a way to remedy this situation.”

And that’s through electric vehicles instead of internal combustion engines. That’s gonna help with global warming and it’s gonna help with this, you know, green initiative that we have going. But we don’t look at it that way. The companies, they take it and they use it as a mask to be able to exploit workers more, and they take the technology and they take the advancements that we have, and they use it as a means to undercut the worker and just make more money. 

And so all of us together should say, wow, it takes 40% less components. Let’s go down to a 32 hour work week. Let’s spend more time with our families. Let’s have a better work life balance. Let’s be able to be there for the children and be there for the next generation and do all of these things. But instead, they’re saying, “We’re gonna lay you all off and we’re gonna make more money on the fact that we’re dealing with this crisis inside of society.”

And that’s problematic. 

Teddy Ostrow: I’m so glad you brought in the EVs ’cause that’s exactly where I was gonna go next, which is to talk about the stakes for the greater auto industry, which is in change, right?

We are seeing a change in this country’s manufacturing makeup, massive investment spurred by government legislation, all being sort of funneled into this green transition. But it doesn’t really seem like it’s very much a just transition as, as unions and other labor advocates would hope it to be.

And the UAW has kind of taken up the mantle of trying to push for equity across the industry as the EV industry ramps up. We just saw an interim wage agreement at the GM Battery Factory in Lordstown, at Ultium cells where folks got around like $4 wage increases, I believe two to $4 wage increases, 

But the leadership framed it as really just the start, because the goal would be to bring these jobs up to the standards of the regular combustion engine jobs themselves, right? The UAW is trying to improve. So I just wanted to maybe give you guys a chance to talk about the stakes for the industry and what’s going on at these new jobs at EV factories.

Luigi Gjokaj: To me, the biggest BS I heard with the whole electrification thing is that, “We have to pay less because [there are] less components and it’s a battery now that’s operating the vehicle.”

There’s this narrative that they’re trying to paint with, “Oh, it’s an easier job. It’s less components, it’s gonna require less people.” But at the end of the day, we’re circling back to what I said, right? Full circle. They’re paying less and still gonna charge more. 

Go look at a mine in the Congo, and you tell me that it’s fair what they’re doing over there to get the product that they need for their EV, the lithium.

Go look at a lithium mine. Go look at a cobalt mine. Find out what they’re paying those people, right? If anything at all, they’re paying rock bottom prices for this technology, And yet you’re gonna sit there and charge more.I don’t know what kind of people they got writing their script, but it is absolute fiction and it is absolute fantasy in every sense of the word.

Jessie Kelly: You can’t sit there and say your material costs and your labor costs and your this cost and your that cost, and you know, we gotta keep the cost low, and yet you just made $12.4 billion in a quarter. Okay? In a quarter. That’s more money than most communities are gonna spend in a lifetime. Yeah. So let’s talk about Ultium’s interim deal. I’m glad for them. I think that I agree with Shawn Fain when he says it’s just a start, but taking a $16.65 an hour job and turning it into a $19.65 an hour job is not the answer. It’s not the means to the end. It’s not a win, for anybody. 

It’s better than it was, but it’s not a win. And that’s why I’m really glad that he said it’s an interim deal.

And he’s not even patting himself on the back or anybody else on the back. He’s saying this is just what they were owed so far. And this is just the start to even begin to talk, because that’s correct. Those people deserve so much more because they are the future and because they are going to take our society in a positive way, and they’re going to secure our future in ways that really matter for our next generations and saving this planet and we owe them so much more than like a wage that will literally put you on government assistance.

It’s sad. It’s sad that General Motors did that, but to just build upon Luigi’s point: these are propulsion jobs. It doesn’t matter what source that General Motors is using to propel a vehicle. It’s just propulsion jobs. And so if we have already won inside of negotiation tables from decades to decades to decades, that this is the standard of living for a job that creates a propulsion system for a vehicle.

Why are we going back on that? Why do we have to re-win things that we’ve already won? 

They’re just using it as a means to exploit more workers and to get more, and to make more record breaking profits. And that’s what it all ends up being inside of America, is that in order to sustain a competitive market, in order to do better than you did the quarter before, you have to take from somewhere.

And so what they’re doing is they’re constantly taking from the bottom, and that’s why we’re living in a society where that gap is growing. The 1% is getting smaller and we’re getting larger and we’re dying, right? The bottom half is dying while they’re getting richer and richer and richer and it’s sad and we need to draw attention to that.

Teddy Ostrow: We covered so much ground, thank you guys so much for doing this with me. I have to ask you though, in a last lightning round, because I know a lot of people are wondering this: are you guys gonna go on strike, you think, come September 14th?

Luigi Gjokaj: We need to do what we need to do.

Jessie Kelly: We’re gonna do what we need to do. 

Teddy Ostrow: Well, we’ll see what you guys do. Jessie, and Luigi, thanks for joining me on The Upsurge. 

Jessie Kelly: Thank you so much for having us. 

Teddy Ostrow: Thanks for having us. You just listened to episode 14 of The Upsurge

Special thanks to Luigi Gjokaj, Danny Morales and assembly line worker and UAW Local 22 member Chris Viola for contributing audio clips to this episode.

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

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The podcast was edited by myself

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I’m Teddy Ostrow. Thanks for [01:02:00] listening and catch you next time

On Tuesday, August 22, the Teamsters union announced that its members voted to ratify the national UPS contract by 86.3% –  and with record turnout. Workers won significant raises, the abolition of the two-tier driver system, air conditioning in package cars, thousands of new full-time jobs, and more. 

In our previous episode, we discussed the gains of the tentative agreement and the years of Teamsters organizing it took to make them possible, including the past year’s contract campaign which built a credible strike threat. In this episode, we dug deeper into the various layers of members’ reactions to the contract, as well as what’s required of the membership to enforce it and build on it moving forward. 

We invited Greg Kerwood, a UPSer from Local 25 in Somerville, Massachusetts, back on the show to share his point of view. Greg explained what he’s heard from the membership, how social media may have distorted members’ views, and why it’s important to translate the disappointment of some workers – including his own – into productive organizing on the shop floor. 

We also share some news on the future of The Upsurge…

Additional links/info below…

• Support the show at Patreon.com/upsurgepod.
• Follow us on Twitter @upsurgepod, Facebook, The Upsurge, and YouTube @upsurgepod.
• Hear Teddy discuss the UPS Teamsters’ reaction to the tentative agreement on The Valley Labor Report.

Hosted by Teddy Ostrow
Edited by Teddy Ostrow
Produced by NYGP & Ruby Walsh, in partnership with In These Times & The Real News
Music by Casey Gallagher
Cover art by Devlin Claro Resetar

Transcript

The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.

Greg: a lot of these folks that are involved in, in fighting different pieces of this agreement.

Based on what they believe, uh, are new to this, and this is their first time through this process. And it’s a wonderful thing, uh, that they all became so involved and got so fired up and, and active and that they’re willing to fight for what they believe in. Whether, whether I agree with it or not, um, is really irrelevant.

Um, but what we need to do going forward is sort of, uh, take those folks and. Teach them that, uh, you know, this is not, no contract is the end. Um, and, and that, uh, you now know the game. You’ve now learned the rules. You’ve now learned how this structure works, how to play it, how to do it, and that’s gonna give you all the advantage going into the next one.

And if you channel that energy and that drive and that conviction, In the right direction, uh, then we are all gonna be better off for it in 2028.

Teddy: Hello my name is Teddy Ostrow. Welcome to the Upsurge, a podcast about UPS, the Teamsters, and the future of the American labor movement.

This podcast unpacks the unprecedented labor fight this year at UPS. On August 22, UPS Teamsters ratified the tentative agreement on their national labor contract, which covers roughly 340,000 workers, reaping concessions from the company by credibly threatening one of the largest strikes against a single company in US history.

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

You heard that right. On Tuesday, August 22, the Teamsters union announced that its members voted to ratify the national UPS contract by 86.3% –  and in record turnout. 

The overwhelming passage of the TA comes after a year-long contract campaign, months of strike threats and tense negotiations, and years of internal organizing for reform in the union. Workers won significant raises, the abolition of the two-tier driver system, air conditioning in package cars, thousands of new full-time jobs, protections for drivers’ days off, Martin Luther King Jr. Day as a paid holiday, and more. 

Only one small supplement in Florida out of the 45 supplemental agreements was voted down. Before the national contract can go into effect, that supplement must be renegotiated and voted on, which the union says could be done by the weekend. The ballots for two other locals in Chicago, which have separate agreements, are still being counted.

With ratification by these margins and an unprecedented 58% participation rate, the rank and file have spoken. It is a testament to the historic contract campaign in the union, which is already serving as a standard for other big labor fights ahead.

Now, we did not have enough time to squeeze in a long interview responding to the results before publication, but we do have one, I think, that is both instructive and relevant.

For this episode, I invited Greg Kerwood back on the show to discuss the many layers of UPS workers’ reactions to the tentative agreement, which is now the official contract.

Greg is a 19-year veteran of UPS out of Local 25 in Somerville, Massachusetts, and he is an elected member of the international steering committee of Teamsters for a Democratic Union. And full disclosure, as we have stated at the end of every show, Greg is also a patron of The Upsurge on Patreon.

In our last episode, we discussed the gains of the tentative agreement and the years of Teamsters organizing it has taken to make them possible, including the past year’s contract campaign which built a credible strike threat. We also discussed briefly why some workers expressed disappointment with the TA, and why that actually could be a positive sign of raised expectations among the membership.

With Greg, I thought we’d expand on that latter topic: to capture the various reactions that he and I have been hearing from members over the past few weeks, as they voted on whether to ratify the deal. We now know what happened, and hopefully the last episode and this interview will help to explain why it happened.

I invited Greg on the show because he occupies a somewhat unique role in the UPS Teamsters. He has probably read the contract front-to-back more times than most of his coworkers, and he has been very meticulous and public in his own analysis of the tentative agreement. That doesn’t make his point of view more right or wrong than anyone else’s. Indeed, he probably has a minority position.

But he is an organizer on the shop floor and online, and has spoken to dozens and dozens of UPS workers about the TA over the past few weeks. So, Greg offered a very informed analysis of how the membership reacted to the TA, including some comments on the social media climate, which may have convinced some observers that the vote would be much closer than it was. He also gives his personal opinion on how the union can build on the contract campaign to move forward productively and to enforce the contract, which UPS, he argues, will certainly try to violate.

Before we move onto the interview, I want to address what many of you are likely wondering. What will become of The Upsurge? 

That’s a good question. We started this podcast to capture in real time the Teamsters’ historic contract campaign at UPS in 2023, which very well could have led to one of the largest strikes in US history. 

We did this primarily by listening to and platforming the workers themselves, who were generous enough to share their struggles as well as their organizing. To tell this story accurately, we had to dig into the history of the Teamsters and UPS, the impacts of the pandemic on workers, the broader resurgence in working-class militancy in the US, and the rise of e-commerce logistics.

But this podcast was always bound to end, or to move on to other sites of upsurge. And the latter is what we’re going to do. Moving forward, we will not abandon the Teamsters entirely, especially as they continue their existential fight to organize Amazon. But we will be shifting our focus –  to the renewed militancy of the United Auto Workers.

If you haven’t yet, go back and listen to Episode 5 and our July 13th bonus episode to understand why we’re making this shift. On September 14, the contracts of over 150,000 auto workers at Ford, GM and Stellantis will expire. Taking from the Teamster playbook, the UAW has made it clear that that’s a deadline, not a reference. 

A strike is on the table, and for the first time in living memory, the UAW has launched a contract campaign, practice pickets and all. I have been speaking to auto workers around the country in the past couple of weeks, and it’s pretty clear, the Teamsters changed the game. Member after member has said that they saw what the UPSers achieved, and now they want it for themselves.

This is what The Upsurge is all about.

Now, I know that this shift means that a lot of our patrons will move on, and that’s ok. Thank you so much for what you’ve helped us build over the past eight months. We could not have done it without you. But we still do need you, so please consider sticking around for the next phase. And even if you can’t contribute some money, I encourage you to stay along for the ride, because there’s a lot to learn.

Much like the Teamsters’ story, the UAW fight is about a changing union, a changing economy, a changing labor movement, a changing working-class politics, and most importantly, a changing climate.

At the dawn of the green, and hopefully just, transition, the Teamsters will be moving the future, but UAW members will be building it.

I’ll leave it there for now.

Greg Kerwood: Greg 

Teddy Ostrow: Kerrwood, welcome to the upsurge. 

Greg Kerwood: Thanks for having me again, Teddy, it’s good to talk to you always. 

Teddy Ostrow: So briefly, can you just first tell us about, What your role has been in the past year or so in this contract fight.

You know, I know a lot of U p s workers know you. You’re perhaps a little famous in that regard, but my broader audience does not know who you are. Maybe beyond the couple episodes you’ve been on my show. So maybe you can go back even a little further, explain your background a little bit too, but, Most of all, elaborate on your own role in this movement.

Speaking with workers, coordinating with workers, and figuring out what their demands are and what their proposals are for this contract campaign over the past year. You know, one of the ways that you did this was through a Facebook group. For contract proposals and you run a couple different Facebook groups, and if people don’t understand this, there is a lot of activity of u p s workers on Facebook.

It’s not necessarily representative of all [00:01:00] the opinions and all of the people, but Greg, you’re a pretty, you play a pretty key role there, so please can you, fill listeners in on that? yeah. 

Greg Kerwood: So I can go back. my time at U P S began in 2004. I started relatively late. I was almost 31, at the time.

 and my first contract experience, didn’t happen until 2008. like a lot of the folks that are coming to this fresh, this time around, I had no idea how the process worked. what it entailed, or even the concept that we could change our working conditions was sort of a. and as such, when I went through it, I was sort of caught, uh, unprepared.

Um, didn’t have proposals ready, didn’t know that there was a meeting, didn’t know, uh, you know, that, that this was how it worked. from that, I took my lessons and when I came back in 2013, I was ready to go with a stack of proposals. Ready for the local meeting. and then [00:02:00] 2018 was, sort of an extension of that.

Um, and what happened was, I was not, actively on social media. I owed that debt of gratitude to our former president, who unfortunately convinced me that I had to start speaking about things due to his, ineptitude. So I had, uh, sort of tied into the vote no movement in 2018, after the contract came out and after we saw, what a disaster it was.

And so, uh, I became, uh, part of that became very vocal in that, join some Facebook groups. Sort of, came to understand how they worked and sort of how powerful of a tool they could be, as far as getting messages out, uh, convincing people of things, spreading the word between members very quickly.

 it was something of a, of a unprecedented tool of organization that we hadn’t seen before.[00:03:00] and so, first, after that, I started a group, for 4 0 1 K users, u p s, teamster 4 0 1 K users, just to sort of give everybody a central location for information about their 4 0 1 k. that sort of got my feet wet as far as managing, uh, Facebook group and what that entailed and, sort of showed me how to do it.

 and then having been through all those contracts, uh, prior, I came to the conclusion about two years ago or so that, perhaps a Facebook group about proposals for the 2023 contract, would be a good idea. my goal being to, sort of illuminate the process for, a larger number of members, I think it’s something that we don’t do a very good job of as far as teaching members, what the process is, how it works.

And more importantly, getting through to members that it’s their contract. I think we lapse into this mentality [00:04:00] sometimes of, we are the workers and someone goes and gets our contract for us and gives it back to us. And, that, that’s how it works. And really that’s a product of the size of u p s.

That’s not, I don’t think anybody’s approach, in some of the smaller white paper contracts that happen, in, in, within locals. but with u p s it always had been. This attitude of, well, there’s a bargaining committee and there’s no rank and file members on it. And, they just go and do their thing and then they tell us what they get and we vote on it.

 and so the goal of the group was to sort of break down those walls, get past that, get people to think outside the box. I knew I was gonna have my proposals regardless, so it really wasn’t about me as much as, getting people involved, getting them to see the possibilities. Of what their contract could be and not sort of accept the default response, without questioning it.

And so I think that was the goal of the group. I don’t know whether it succeeded or not. we’ll see, I [00:05:00] guess. But, I hope, I certainly would like to believe that it got a lot of people much more involved in the process and gave them a better understanding of the process. and hopefully that’s something that they, and, and we as a, as a group can carry forward onto the next one.

Teddy Ostrow: And, you know, I just to say as well, I know you were also there on the shop floor as a shop steward, like in person doing the things that other, workers across the country, labor activists, and also specifically teamsters for a Democratic Union. Activists were in, in the hubs, at rallies, at the practice pickets.

 Because you know, you have been in communication with so many people online as well as in person. I know that your phone was blowing up when the TA was released, a couple weeks ago. I thought you’d be a great person to sort of give your own honest assessment, you know, of the members you’ve spoken to, and I know there’s been many of them, how they received this tentative agreement.

How they continue to receive it, how maybe their [00:06:00] views are changing as time goes on. They become more educated. it’s a huge bargaining unit, you know. So views are obviously going to be wide ranging, but I’m curious if you’ve been, you’ve clocked any order in this chaos, that it might appear. What are people telling you? What do you see from the membership? I 

Greg Kerwood: would say that there are, as you sort of alluded to, there, there are different levels. I think for the average, worker who, who is just interested in going to work every day and doing their job, providing for their family, and sort of doesn’t pay attention to anything beyond that.

 I think that their reaction to this, has primarily focused on, the monetary, uh, payoff for, for good or for worse, whether you’re part-time or full-time. it’s a matter of opinion whether, you know, the raises are sufficient or the part-time pay, uh, is sufficient. Um, but I think either way, that’s been the main focus for a lot of folks.

 and then there’s sort of [00:07:00] the next level of person who is, active, as a u p S member. As, as a, they’re active in the workplace. they’re active maybe with the contract. They’re active with grieving things. But they’re not necessarily active beyond that. and I think those folks, a lot of them, if they’ve been doing it for a long time, view this as, sort of a major turnaround and, and a win and, and something that is, uh, turning the ship in the right direction and a relief to see after years and years of pushing.

There are the others of those, of that same category who, view this as sort of, not quite the culmination of the fight that they expected, that the buildup perhaps was, was so huge, that they were expecting, even more dramatic changes than they received. and in that sense, to them perhaps it was sort of a letdown.

 and then I think there’s a third level of, of person who’s [00:08:00] active in the labor movement, even beyond the world of u p s, who sort of sees this from a further distance and has a different perspective and who sees it as, something that, coalesced members and got them to fight, and got them to take to the street.

And, and show a force and, brought the company to where we wanted them to be, and see it as a huge win for us and a huge win for the labor movement. and, one more step in sort of turning the tide, back in favor of workers. the last two groups, I would say represent the minority, even though, those are the groups that perhaps you and I are, are most familiar with.

I think your average member, is really focused on the financial aspect of things and, again, they’re viewing it from their own perspective, whether it’s sufficient or it isn’t. 

Teddy Ostrow: Right. And from what I can tell, even I. With, with across those different groups, I think, which are sort of a helpful [00:09:00] representation of what people may be seeing either online or, or if you talk to someone at a practice picket over the past month.

You know, from what I can tell though, there is a broad range of opinion. You know, a lot of it is certainly positive people’s. Lives are clearly going to change, whether it’s the monetary elements. I know some folks are certainly happy that, especially in, in some of the hottest areas of the region, they may be getting, ac somewhat soon.

They won’t be forced in, for a sixth or seventh day unless they want to do it. you know, and then there’s people who are expressing criticism and. On that front too. It’s, it’s a ton of different issues. You know, there’s the activist layer, which I think you’re a part of, that has other reasons for disappointment, but then there are the individualistic reasons for disappointment.

Maybe the, the raise wasn’t high enough or they wanted to see a certain language that was most pertinent to them. So I’m wondering, you know, are there certain issues that are rising to the top from your conversations, both positive and negative? [00:10:00] 

Greg Kerwood: Well, I think, there’s issues, obviously there are part-timers who are dissatisfied with the raises, and dissatisfied with perhaps, the format of the raises.

 I don’t know whether that mathematically to me that’s, that’s tough to swallow. but certainly psychologically I completely understand where they’re coming from. That’s one side of it, that, that issue. 

Teddy Ostrow: and just to be clear, this, you’re kind of alluding to some folks who may have wanted $25 an hour, which was what, some portions of the union were pushing, at certain points in time.

Yep. 

Greg Kerwood: 25. I mean, I’ve seen higher, I think in some sense there, there, should be dissatisfaction with the structure of part-time pay as a whole. as it is different from all the other classifications at u p s, which really makes little sense. but yeah, I think that that’s, that’s a major issue, that’s come up.

I think that, for [00:11:00] drivers, certainly some of the lack of harassment, protection, as far as being ridden by supervisors. the complication of, nine five excessive overtime protection. some of the confusion around, the eight hour request language. I, and I think the, the overriding, concern if there is an overriding concern for a lot of members still comes back to, the quality of life, the having control over.

Your workday of having a say in how much of your time, you are willing to sell to this company, and not so much the price you’re willing to sell it at. And I think that holds for part-timers as well. they don’t have the four six punch protection, that’s only for drivers. they are captive in the workplace just as much as drivers are.

 as far as drivers go, you know, you’re still held to 14 hours a day if that’s what the company chooses, as long as they’re willing to pay you any kind of penalties. 

 so I, I [00:12:00] think if there is an overriding issue, even though I, I’m, I’m not sure there is, it still comes back to that and I think. If there’s any dissatisfaction with this agreement, it primarily stems from, people went through what they went through in this pandemic and it was impossible not to come to the conclusion, that this company does not care about its workers at all and will abuse them at all costs to maximize profit.

 I’ve been thinking about this today. just remembering, when the pandemic first hit, the, the, the indifference that the company showed when they thought that they were gonna be shut down. And it was almost an immediate response to them, from them that, you know, we’re gonna lay you all off.

 you’re gonna be on sitting at home. We’re not gonna pay you. We’re not just sort of like trying to absolve themselves of any responsibility for anything as quickly as possible. And then the second, [00:13:00] the company got permission to operate during the pandemic, that same total indifference completely flipped into.

 a profit making machinery that still had the same attitude towards the workers, but now it was heightened by this incredible sense of we’re gonna make an absolute fortune from this as long as we can just continue to force everybody in and work them into the ground. You know, this is a golden goose that’s gonna gonna lay eggs for us for the next however many years.

 and the mentality’s the same from, from management, but it just, it was an interesting. Thing to think about, how, uh, whether it hurt the company or didn’t hurt the company, their attitude towards the employees in the circumstance was still gonna be exactly the same. We don’t care about you at all. whether we’re laying you off or we’re working you to death.

We just don’t care about you. We’re only concerned about our company and our profits. and I think everybody was made aware of that in this pandemic. And I think [00:14:00] that, we went into this contract. Sort of expecting that to be dealt with. And I’m not sure, I think part of the issue is that’s a very difficult thing to put into contract terms and sort of point to some specific, uh, we need X so that that will address this mentality.

And I think that’s perhaps where some things got lost in translation between proposal and negotiation. Was that, perhaps there wasn’t a clear path to how do we put that desire of the members to be respected and treated as human into some sort of concrete, language in a contract that will somehow change that approach and, and give them that, that protection and that sense of humanity in the workplace.

It’s not a a, a small order and I don’t wanna diminish what the, the negotiating committee [00:15:00] accomplished, but I think if there is an issue underneath all that, that’s what it is. That somehow that feeling that people got during that pandemic, was not translated into the contract language that would address their concern.

Teddy Ostrow: I wanna circle back to that in the, you know, last episode, Sean, or even went and, and said, it translated into a lot of folks just wanting to strike the bastards, right? It’s, it didn’t even matter, if it would necessarily be resolved in a contract language, but really just the indifference, but even more so I would argue is active hostility to people who are doing essential work and.

Dying. and not being protected and, and not seeing their families and they’re worried and what have you, you know, just the absolute terror of the pandemic translated into, look, I want to, I want to hurt this company. and you know, there might have been a minority of people, but that sentiment certainly is [00:16:00] out there.

You know, first, before we get to that, I wanted to address, you know, the role of social media because we know. At least some of the debates and discussions are happening online by no means exclusively, and a fraction of the members are participating there. You know, I think you probably should be proud, Greg, of the thousands and thousands, tens of thousands of people who you’ve been able to organize online, um, that’s, it’s an accomplishment.

But they also still are like a fraction of the thoughts and discussions, that are happening about the ta. you know, they’re happening, on the shop floor, in, in, in, People’s personal homes and text messages, what have you. Um, so I wanted to ask you, you know, as someone who, uses social media, but also is out there on the shop floor, is out there on the phone with a lot of members, do you find that there’s a difference between how social media may portray members’ reactions versus what you actually hear when you talk to workers on the shop floor?

Or hear workers in, in other areas talking about what they’re hearing in their own [00:17:00] hubs. I wonder if social media can sometimes distort what’s actually going on, in a massive union like u p s, 

Greg Kerwood: Yeah, I think there’s no question. I mean, and, and to some extent it, it amplifies things and to some extent, as you said, it distorts things.

 I would say, just from a, an initial response, my members that I spoke with sort of immediately after the, the agreement came out, were primarily concerned with the lack of harassment, protection, which was not frankly something that I had seen at that point online. certainly wasn’t anybody’s instant response.

And it wasn’t something that I necessarily expected to hear from them, and they sort of caught me off guard. Uh, that that was sort of the consensus concern was, protection from excessive rides as drivers. and I know certainly the part-timers feel the same way. I have to say in, you know, the part-timers in my building.

You know, are very happy, with the [00:18:00] financial situation. but again, they’re not facing, the same m r a structure that others are facing. That’s 

Teddy Ostrow: market. Sorry, just to say that’s market rate adjustment, which were these raises, That were given to people in certain areas so that they could compete in the labor market, you know, otherwise people will go and find other jobs that perhaps aren’t as stressful and you don’t get yelled at in a warehouse.

Greg Kerwood: Yeah, we’ve had those, uh, sort of come and go and there’ve been different ones, uh, in different buildings within the local still are. but I think in my building in particular, they just happen to be at 21 already. which sort of, now that they’re getting the raises on top of that, that was an initial concern.

But since the, that was made clear by the I B T, there’s sort of. Position perfectly to reap the full benefit of, of the, the general wage increases. And so, they tend to be pretty happy, with that as it is. but obviously that’s not the case everywhere. there are people who are, you know, [00:19:00] longtime workers elsewhere who are still under 21 that are just gonna get bumped up to 21.

 and there are people who are dealing with, uh, RAs that are well above, even this, this contract. that are sort of wondering where that leaves them. 

Teddy Ostrow: And just to, just to talk about that for a, for a second, just so people understand. for a lot of folks it wasn’t clear or not whether someone who was making $23 an hour because a U P S was like, oh my God, we gotta give these people raises or else we won’t be able to hire them in Seattle or something.

 It wasn’t clear whether or not they could lose that, after this contract. but because of a side letter that clarified some language, which some people still seem to be a little bit, ambivalent about.

They aren’t sure whether it really says, that they can’t have it taken away. But nonetheless, this. has been for some people, somewhat of a relief to see, okay, I’m gonna get a general wage increase on top of my [00:20:00] M r a rather than, having the m r MRI taken away. And then I end up perhaps at the, at the same level that I was before or even even lower after the ratification of the contract.

Greg Kerwood: Yeah. So to, to get back to your original question, it’s hard to say. I, I think, The, that that average member that I referred to earlier, tends to focus more on the money. unfortunately, I think, there’s a lot of apathy amongst that group in general. And, if they didn’t get something, beyond the financial, package, I think there’s sort of a, a, a default acceptance of that, especially anybody who’s been here for any number of years.

 You know, again, the goal of my group and, and certainly the work of others was to get people to think outside the box and beyond what they know and, and dream big, so to speak. and I’m not sure, uh, you know, for as many members as are in my group, as you said, it’s, it’s a very, very small fraction [00:21:00] of 340,000, members.

And I think the majority of members, uh, still have the mentality. Through no fault of their own, that, uh, u p s is the way that it is, and it’s gonna continue to be the way that it is. And, you know, the best we can do is try to get more money out of ’em. And, I think that probably represents the vast majority of members.

Um, you know, anyone, like myself who’s, who’s made, campaign calls or follow up calls to individuals around the country, I think that sort of gives you a, a serious sense of. How, how little the social media activist, even leadership bubbles really impact the average member at all, which is somewhat disheartening.

 but at the same time, you know, we have to be realistic and that’s, the majority of this stuff. even though what we do may have an impact on their lives. They don’t see it and they’re [00:22:00] not a part of it, and it doesn’t concern them. And so, uh, I think that, gauging things off of social media is a tricky business.

 it can be, in some cases, give you insight into what’s going on in other places around the country and things like that. But at the same time, you, you’re, you’re very right that it can, it can absolutely distort things, and make you think that something is much more prevalent than it’s. 

Teddy Ostrow: Thanks for, thanks for humoring me on the, uh, the social media question. But let’s, let’s get back to some of what you were just talking about before. You know, I’d like to hear about your point of view on things in our last episode. Sean Orr, a packaged car driver outta 7 0 5 and Al Bradbury from Labor Notes.

We talked about. part of the conversation was we talked about, you know, some folks who are disappointed with the tentative agreement, despite it being, and I think. You have said this elsewhere. You know it clearly being one of the best, if not the best contract for U P S Teamsters in history, but we talked about how raised [00:23:00] expectations, the impact of covid, which you were just discussing, just this broader labor moment, how there may, how all of that may have played into this.

So, I know you listened to that episode, and I’m curious, you know, about your own assessment of the tentative agreement and whether, that, or any of that or, or something else sort of resonates with you. Well, 

Greg Kerwood:  it’s unquestionably the best contract we’ve ever had. I defy anyone to produce a better one.

 to me that was never the question. The question for me was whether it was the right contract, for the time given the leverage that we had, given what our members went through with the pandemic, and given the things that they wanted. now in fairness to the committee, they had a lot of stuff to undo.

From the prior contracts, which obviously we only have so much, capital to expend at the bargaining table. And when you have to use a lot of it to undo the damage from [00:24:00] previous contracts, it is what it is and you have to do that. I think that, Alan and Sean were, we’re right on point with a lot of stuff.

 as far as, having issues with it is a good thing. From a certain perspective, you don’t wanna be satisfied. you don’t want to, uh, sort of crest the hill. you always want to be striving for more. and part of the way you do that is by getting people involved and active and fired up, which is what we did to get what we’ve gotten in this agreement.

 the tricky part, I think, going forward. Is going to be, steering that, that, let down slash anger slash frustration slash disappointment into something positive. I think it’s, there’s a fine line, between, cynicism and hope and, the folks that are disappointed and frustrated, Perhaps with, with what they didn’t get in this agreement, can very [00:25:00] easily turn into what a lot of people turned into in the last three, four contracts.

 people who just throw up their hands and say, you know, this is the way it works. This, this whole system stinks and we’re never gonna get anywhere. I don’t care anymore. and that’s what we don’t want and that’s a very serious danger. a lot of these folks that are involved in, in fighting different pieces of this agreement.

Based on what they believe, are new to this, and this is their first time through this process. And it’s a wonderful thing, that they all became so involved and got so fired up and, and active and that they’re willing to fight for what they believe in. Whether, whether I agree with it or not, is really irrelevant.

 but what we need to do going forward is sort of, take those folks and. Teach them that, no contract is the end. and that, uh, you now know the game. You’ve now learned the rules. You’ve now learned how this structure works, how to play it, how to [00:26:00] do it, and that’s gonna give you all the advantage going into the next one.

And if you channel that energy and that drive and that conviction, In the right direction, then we are all gonna be better off for it in 2028.  unfortunately the contracts being the length that they are, that can be an eternity sometimes. And, you know, you lose some people by the wayside and, and things happen in life and, and not everybody makes it to the next one.

 but I think it’s very important, that we find a way to take those folks and sort of, First off, acknowledge their concerns, and acknowledge the imperfections in this agreement. I mean, no agreement is perfect. we shouldn’t be pretending that it is. There’s always other stuff that doesn’t get addressed.

Some of those things are known now. Some of them will become known in the next five years when we see how things play out, when, when things go to panel and arbitrations and gray language gets decided one way or the other. And things that we don’t see as issues right [00:27:00] now may be very quickly issues a year from now.

Or two years from now, when the company starts pushing things in one direction and we have to fight it, enforcement of this contract is, is the other half of the battle. you know, getting the language is one thing, enforcing it is another. And we also need to take those folks that are all fired up and, and channel that into enforcement, which requires the same level as or of organization as, as the contract campaign itself.

 But I think we have to first, you know, acknowledge the way that people feel and acknowledge that it’s legitimate. and this is nothing against Sean and Al, but it’s, you can stand back from this, from a distance and see the bigger picture, and that’s a wonderful thing to do.

 and it can seem very optimistic from back there. but at the same time, you also have to acknowledge. That person who’s struggling and who was looking for something that was gonna change their life and they didn’t get it, or they didn’t get enough of it, or, they want something [00:28:00] different or they want something more.

And, to my mind, uh, you know, not being a young person myself, that I find to be the best part of all of this from a, from a, a distant perspective, is that people are willing. To, no, I want more. That they’re willing to not just accept that they’re willing to stand up and say, this is not good enough.

This is not okay. This is not how things should work. We’re willing to change it. We’re willing to fight for it. We’re willing to stand up and make things different. To me, that’s the best part of all of it. and. In order to, make that work, you have to see that from a distance, but you also have to put yourself in that person’s shoes, in that person’s position because if you don’t, you run the risk of them giving up.

And, you don’t want them to give that up. You want to keep that fire burning for the next five years and, and beyond. You wanna keep those folks that, that are just getting into this and seeing the possibilities,[00:29:00] from giving up hope. You want them to understand that they now have the tools in their, in their bag to make these things happen.

Whether it’s daily workplace changes or whether it’s fighting for new contract language in 2028. And, if we can find a way to do that and get that message through to these folks while they’re disappointed and while they’re angry and while they’re frustrated, I think that that army that we built for this contract fight is going to be, even better, going forward.

Teddy Ostrow: I appreciate that perspective. And I, I want to ask you, you know, building off of the disappointment, building off of also what was won, you know, what are the issues that people you think going forward are going to have to be addressed on the shop floor or in pursuit of a new contract, five years from now?

You know, what are you hearing from your coworkers? What do you think for yourself and, and what is it gonna take? For you guys to address them. When a ta, whether it’s this one [00:30:00] or another one, is finally ratified, what is next for the u p s Teamsters? 

Greg Kerwood: Well, I think the issues though, the, the, the big issues are still the same big issues that have been there since I started, and I think the struggle continues is to, how to find a way to address them.

 it’s it’s work life balance. It’s harassment in the workplace. It’s, it’s something that, as a u p S employee, you find yourself struggling to describe to anyone who hasn’t worked there. there’s just a mentality in this company, and I know, you know, there’s, there’s a, you mentioned payback. you know, that that’s part of that reason that, some folks, including myself, thought it was an absolute necessity.

That we strike this company, because they’re really, it’s, it’s all about power. And the power continues to remain in the hands of the company. And until we flip that in the other direction,[00:31:00] u p s is gonna continue to be u p s and working at U P Ss is going to continue to be very, very difficult. regardless of pay.

 it’s just, it’s not a question of money. I don’t know what driver out there that will tell you they don’t make good money. I think after this contract plays out, you will be hard pressed to find, that many part-timers, that will feel that they don’t at least make decent money. and so, uh, the money is really for me, never really been the issue.

 and I think it’s becoming the case for a lot of other folks after going through, the pandemic, it really becomes a question of. What your priorities are in life and, and should you have to sacrifice your entire existence to the place you work. and you know, it’s, it’s 2023 and I think the answer to that is a resounding no.

And I think that, uh, a lot of these folks that are upset and disappointed, whether indirectly or, or directly, that’s really the [00:32:00] underlying factor of all the frustration I. and, all I can say, to those folks is, This is a good thing, right? I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t be sitting here talking to Teddy Ostro on the upsurge if I hadn’t been disappointed in 2018 and 2013 and 2008, which is a contract that everyone forgets because there was absolutely nothing in it.

 but you know, to someone who started under a six year contract. And waited so long for that 2008 to roll around. To me, that was one of the bigger disappointments of all of them because that was the first time I was even remotely involved in, in, in seeing possibilities and got absolutely nothing at all and had to work under basically the same contract for another five years.

 but that’s what drives the next one, and, and that to me is the message that has to get out to people is that. You don’t, you understand the possibilities now and you understand the rules of the game, and the disappointment is what [00:33:00] drives the next contract. This agreement here comes from 2018.

The election of the odds slate comes from 2018. The, the, the potential of a strike even comes from 2018. If we don’t change the leadership and we don’t change the constitution and we, we don’t have practice pickets. We don’t have this agreement, we don’t have anything that this agreement accomplished.

Doesn’t happen unless we go through 2018. And you sort of have to be tempered by those fires in order to become the weapon that you should be. And, I think that that’s what people need to understand is that this is part of the process. I don’t like it anymore than anybody else does. you know, I don’t wanna be disappointed.

I wanna open an agreement. One of these. Five-year periods and just be wowed and, and, and, and shake my head in awe that we’ve accomplished everything that we did. I expect a lot, so that may never happen. but, you know, that’s the goal. Uh, but you have to understand [00:34:00] that, disappointment is part of the process and, and part of the growth curve, as a union member, you, and, and like I said, even at the best contract in the world, Even if this addressed everybody’s issues, there are things that are gonna come up between now and 2028.

There are loopholes that are gonna, that are gonna rear their ugly head. There are arbitration decisions that are gonna change the meaning of language that we thought was one thing, and it turns out now it’s another. There’s always going to be more issues, and this process will teach you how to fight those issues and how to take them on, and how to be prepared to change the language in 2028 to address those things.

So it’s, this whole process is nothing but a learning curve. And you have to take the good with the bad and the ups with the downs and the wins with the defeats and, dust yourself off and, and learn. I, I learned in 2018 that, my making proposals in my local was not gonna be enough.

And so that’s why I started that [00:35:00] Facebook group because I knew that if I could make these proposals and I could get more people involved and they could be making the same proposals in different parts of the country at the same time, that perhaps those proposals might actually get through and make it to the table, and maybe we might get some and, and getting people to have faith in the process, in building momentum to a pro potential strike and a contract campaign and all of that stuff.

Uh, that doesn’t happen without the previous losses. And, and so, to me, that’s the way you have to view this. I’m gonna be eternally optimistic about it, whether I like it or not. and, you know, encourage everybody to keep on pushing and, and keep on, remembering that we’re all still on the same team and we’re all going in the same direction.

And if you play your part, you might have a say in how the ship gets steered. And, and that’s what we need to push for and that’s what people need to fight for. 

Teddy Ostrow: Greg Kerrwood, thank you so much for coming on the 

Greg Kerwood: upsurge. Thanks for having me. Teddy.[00:36:00] 

Teddy: You just listened to episode 13 of The Upsurge. 

I chatted briefly with Greg after the vote, and he told me he wasn’t surprised. While he sees this as a stepping stone, he think there’s a lot of work still to be done in the Teamsters union, as far as enforcement and education, so that UPS workers see the contract not as something given to them, but something that’s there’s and that they won.

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

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Before I get to our Patreon supporters, I want to speak directly to a sizable portion of our audience who are UPS Teamsters themselves. This show, which has taken countless hours to produce over the past eight months, would be nothing without your labor, your courage, your willingness to fight for yourselves and the greater working-class, and especially the stories of individuals who were generous to share them with me and our listeners.

So, thank you for what you’ve built, and I look forward to seeing how you continue to build, at UPS, in the Teamsters union, and beyond, as the organization of Amazon is undertaken.

Thank you also, of course, to all our Patreon supporters. We could not do this without you, but a very special thank you and shout out to our patrons at the Business Agent tier or higher.

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The podcast was edited by myself

It was produced by NYGP and Ruby Walsh.

Music is by Casey Gallagher.

The cover art was done by Devlin Claro Resetar.

I’m Teddy Ostrow. Thanks for listening and catch you next time

The United Auto Workers’ labor agreements at the Big 3 automakers – Ford, GM, and Stellantis – just began. Their current contracts expire in mid-September, and the new UAW leadership has been crystal clear: they’re not afraid to take 150,000 of its members out on strike if their demands aren’t met. This would be less than two months after the potential strike of 340,000 Teamsters at UPS. 

In this bonus episode, we discuss the renewed militancy of the UAW, and the reform movement, Unite All Workers for Democracy (UAWD), which shocked the labor world for taking control of the union leadership earlier this year.

There is no labor movement resurgence without the resurgence of labor in manufacturing industries, but the UAW has also been a leader in the upsurge of higher education organizing over the past five years. 

To discuss all this, we spoke with two newly elected UAW officers: Brandon Mancilla, Director of UAW Region 9A, and Dan Vicente, Director of UAW Region 9. 

Additional links/info below…

• Support the show at Patreon.com/upsurgepod.
• Follow us on Twitter @upsurgepod, Facebook, The Upsurge, and YouTube @upsurgepod.
• Chris Brooks, “How the UAW Went from a Militant, Trailblazing Union to a Corrupt, Dealmaking One,” In These Times, March 5, 2020.
• Luis Feliz Leon, “‘There’s a Real Fight Coming’: Newly Elected UAW Reformer Daniel Vicente on What’s Next,” In These Times, March 8, 2023. 
• Alex N. Press, “Can the UAW Rise Again?” Jacobin, March 31, 2023.
• Becca Roskill, “The End of Business Unionism at the UAW — and Beyond?” The Nation, April 7, 2023. 
• Teddy Ostrow, “Workers Are Transforming America’s Most Powerful Unions into Fighting Machines. Yours Could be Next,” The Real News, June 26, 2023. 
• UAW Video: “Fighting for COLA“
• UAW Video: UAW Unionwide Town Hall on the Big Three Automakers
• UAW Video: “Our Defining Moment,” Calls out Big Three Race to the Bottom in EV Transition. 
• UAW Video: “¼ Trillion“

Hosted by Teddy Ostrow
Edited by Teddy Ostrow
Produced by NYGP & Ruby Walsh, in partnership with In These Times & The Real News
Music by Casey Gallagher
Cover art by Devlin Claro Resetar

Transcript

Brandon Mancilla: We don’t want to just simply win a union. We wanna win strong unions. And strong unions need to be democratic, they need to be transparent, they need to be participatory. 

Daniel Vicente: We have to put our foot in the ground. Now, if we don’t do this now, we won’t have another opportunity.

It’s gonna have to be us. And if you are in a shop and you feel that your local elected officials don’t represent you, run against them.

Teddy Ostrow: Hello my name is Teddy Ostrow. Welcome to The Upsurge, a podcast about UPS, the Teamsters, and the future of the American labor movement.

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

You are listening to a public bonus episode of The Upsurge. Bonus episodes are normally exclusive to our Patreon supporters as well as Teamsters who freely receive bonus content. 

They are more quickly made, getting out interviews and even some on the ground reporting to our patrons. 

If you listen and appreciate the show, you’ve got some extra money to share, please head over to patreon.com/upsurgepod. If you contribute $10 per month, you’ll get exclusive show notes. If you contribute $20 per month, you’ll gain access to all our wonderful bonus episodes. But really, any contribution will help. This podcast takes a lot of work, so if you can spare a few bucks a month, it will make a world of difference. 

Onto the show.

For this bonus, I interviewed Brandon Mancilla and Daniel Vicente of the United Auto Workers union. 

You may have heard that contract negotiations between the UAW and the Big 3 automakers, that’s Ford, GM and Stellantis, will begin this week and next. These contracts cover 150,000 auto workers. The headline story has been: UAW president Shawn Fain opted to skip the traditional, kick-off handshake between union officials and the auto executives. 

Here the union isn’t just being petty. It’s symbolic of a deeper change we’ve seen at the UAW in the past year. With the election of new leadership, pro-business attitudes and concessions have given way for militancy and promises to return the legendary union to its fighting roots. That includes a willingness to strike the Big 3 after their contract expirations, just a month a half after the Teamsters may strike UPS.

Sounds familiar, doesn’t it? The Upsurge is largely about the militancy that has once again risen in the Teamsters union following a leadership overhaul in 2021. That didn’t come out of nowhere. The reform organization Teamsters for a Democratic Union played a key role in that recent shift, and prior shifts as well.

I invited Brandon and Dan on the show today to talk about their analogous group in the UAW. That’s the Unite All Workers for Democracy caucus, or UAWD, which was largely modeled on and supported by TDU. We talked about it a bit in episode 5 with Barry Eidlin.

Following corruption scandals in their union, UAWD fought for a member referendum to instate one-member one-vote elections of top officers in the union. Democracy, in other words, like in the Teamsters. 

Union members overwhelmingly approved of this change, and in the 2022 and 2023, in the union’s first direct election, all UAWD-backed candidates won their races, including for the presidency. Dan and Brandon were among those elected.

The militant developments we’re seeing then, are a direct result of rank and file organizing for reform in the union.

And the stakes are very high. The new leadership wants to abolish tiered contracts, which again sounds familiar. But they also want to regain cost-of-living adjustments and better pensions for their members, and to unionize the burgeoning electric vehicle and battery industries. 

There is no resurgence in the labor movement without a resurgence in the manufacturing sector.

Something we also talked about in this interview is the role of the UAW in the higher education union drives that are seeing an upsurge across the US right now.

But that’s enough context. I’ll leave the rest to Brandon, Director of UAW Region 9A, and Dan, Director of UAW Region 9.

Brandon Mania and Dan Vicente. Thanks for joining me on The Upsurge. 

Brandon Mancilla: Thanks for having us. 

Daniel Vicente: Yeah, it’s a pleasure to be here. 

Teddy Ostrow: So I invited you guys on because I wanna talk about union reform movements here, but first, can you both introduce yourselves? How did you come into the union?

What jobs have you had? What are your roles right now?

Brandon Mancilla: I started off as a research assistant and teaching assistant at Harvard University. So I am part of the higher ed organizing wave that’s really taken off over the past five to 10 years. Lots of higher ed workers in the UAW. I’m sure we can talk more about that. Harvard University had a first union election in 2016, which we lost. But then the NLRB invalidated the election because Harvard left lots of people off the eligible voter list. We won our second election. I became more involved through that. We had a strike in 2019 for our first contract. When we settled the contract, I became local president.

We also continued to fight for a stronger successor contract. We went on strike again, so it was a long, bloody fight to win the contracts we won at Harvard University for approximately 5,000 student workers. After that I became an organizer in the legal services and nonprofit sector of the UAW, and then was crazy enough to run for a Region 9A Director, which is the Northeast and Puerto Rico. So that’s how we ended up here.

Daniel Vicente: I’m Dan Vicente. I come from a marine manufacturer out of Pottstown, Pennsylvania, UAW Local 644. I got involved in my local union because I was exposed to chemicals at work. After I came back from the emergency room, I brought those safety concerns to my shop chairman and he told me it wasn’t his effing problem, so I ran against him as soon as I could. Then I won that election and then I’ve just been running for every position that I could ever since. I got my first union job in 2017 after I exited the United States Marine Corps in 2012 and was just kind of going from job to job, from then until I got the UAW job—the benefits and wages of that union job was able to settle my life down and gimme a path forward. I got involved in the reform movement of the Unite All Workers for Democracy after I found out about the one-member one-vote campaign, which was born out of the corruption probe that the Justice Department started on the union, and has sent many of our top officials to federal prison.

That was outrageous, obviously, and I got involved because I was mad and I just thought, we can’t be fighting companies and fighting our own internal leadership. So I figured I’d throw my name in the hat just to show the incumbency that we weren’t gonna take it anymore. Like Brandon said, I was crazy enough to do it and we ended up winning.

So that’s how I ended up in this position. 

Teddy Ostrow: Hell yeah. So, as I said, we wanna talk union reform or more than that, really, labor’s revitalization—union reform within this broader labor moment that we’re seeing. The Teamsters shifted leadership right in 2021. UAW just did, including the election of you guys and other people who came out of your caucus, your slate. So I wanna start out with first just what is Unite All Workers for Democracy, or UAWD for short? You started to talk about this, but why did it emerge? What have you guys pushed for, what have you achieved it and where is it going? 

Brandon Mancilla: UAWD is the effort by rank and file workers in the UAW to democratize and reform this union. There’s been a long history of reform efforts to make the union more militant, to be anti concessions and keep leadership and staff accountable to the rank and file membership for decades.

We can go back to the ‘70s shop floor struggles, to the ‘80s and ‘90s New Directions movement, and a lot of the veterans of those struggles founded UAWD in the late 2010s and into this decade. Because it became unsustainable, the levels of corruption.

It was really a shameful period in the history of our union when it was exposed that the top leadership was stealing membership dues. So combining that with the history of concessions that were made that affected the livelihoods of our members across sectors, but especially in the auto and manufacturing sectors of the union.

UAWD emerged as a response to that. So with the DOJ investigation and requirement of a referendum for one member, one vote, UAWD as a reform caucus was ready and primed to really organize around winning those. So in 2021, we won that referendum. The choice was [between keeping] this outdated delegate system at the convention where handpicked delegates decided who the leadership was, or we would go to one-member, one-vote, and every member would have the opportunity to directly voice who they wanted to be their regional directors, who they wanted to be their president, vice president, secretary, treasurer, et cetera. So that’s what we achieved so far. In 2022, our reform slate ran seven people as Members United, a combination of vice presidents, secretary, treasurer, and regional directors. We also had an independent run, but also a reformer, for regional director in Ohio and Indiana. And we all won. Dan and Shawn went into a runoff after the first round.

I won in the first round and Shawn and Dan also were victorious, so everybody we ran, won, and now forms a majority on the international executive board, which was unthinkable just months ago, but even like when UAWD was formed in 2019. 

Daniel Vicente: Like Brandon said, the Unite All Workers for Democracy movement, a lot of the people that helped found that are seasoned veterans of the reform movement. They’ve been fighting the good fight for decades on their own, more or less, as like these one man, one woman islands. I think that the upsurge, in just, our involvement kind of is a few things. One of ’em is like, Brandon and I are millennials, right? We have been told most of our lives that we live in the best country in the world, and that if we just pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and work hard, that there’s a path to middle class life.

And it just doesn’t exist anymore. It was easy for us to say that’s because of our employers, but with the corruption probe laid bare to all of us, coupled with the pandemic, it’s easy to say that it’s just the employer’s fault, but it was the UAWs fault for the situation that we were in as well.

The UAW had taken a business/management friendly style of unionism, and our members are not down with that anymore. We are angry. We are due increases and we made sacrifices during the recession to save these institutions of American manufacturing with the understanding that when the emergency was over, that they would get us back, make us whole again, and get us back where we used to be and that that has never happened. We’re not gonna continue going forward in just accepting that.

Teddy Ostrow: So an important piece of this is the UAWs mandate, and winning some kickass contracts in manufacturing. Probably the most urgent are the contracts for the so-called big three automakers, Stellantis, Ford, and GM. Maybe you guys could help us understand what’s coming in September?

What are you guys doing to prepare? What are the stakes of this fight and of broader organizing in manufacturing and auto, which does seem to be taking an electric turn right now, with huge investments by battery and auto companies. 

Dan, maybe we can start with you. You did mention some things that you guys are fighting for, and fighting against, that have, I think some resonance with the Teamsters as well. 

Daniel Vicente: Yeah. These negotiations are arguably the most important in generations. The transition to electric vehicles is happening whether we want it to or not.

It’s happening, so the upcoming negotiations are massive. What we’re doing currently is we’re going through the regions and we are trying to prepare our members for legitimate strike actions. To be very honest with you, it was laid bare during the pandemic that we were all deemed essential, but all of our management could go home. You’re not essential. You need us more than we need you. 

What is similar to the Teamsters—the tiered wages are a wedge that was driven into our union. We can no longer accept this. You cannot work next to somebody doing the same exact job on an assembly line and make $10, $12, $15 less than that person. It is not a sustainable model.

The companies are not in financial distress. They’re making money. We are not asking to be made millionaires overnight. We are asking for a path to middle class American citizenship in this country. The jobs that used to exist that allowed our blue collar working class people to sustain themselves and their family no longer exist.

I’ve been in this position for three months. I was just on the shop floor. I was just working in a factory. I had people coming in the door making $16 an hour, having to get EBT cards, which, there’s nothing wrong with having to get assistance, but you have a union job and you have to get EBT to feed your, your families—it’s not acceptable. 

We are not going to continue down this path while CEOs are making tens of millions of dollars and our people are having to get government assistance just to feed their families. It is not a sustainable model. In the past, the union, in my opinion, has taken a stance that they need to work together with the companies.

Under our new leadership, our stance is we are responsible partners in this relationship, but we are not going to force our people to take concessionary contracts. When you are making money, it’s not going to happen. The institution of the union doesn’t exist simply to propel itself. It exists to fight for the men and women that work the floors and drive the trucks and make the products and provide the services that make this country go.

Nobody is coming to save us. The Democrats aren’t coming to save us, and the Republicans aren’t coming to save us. It’s gonna have to be us. It’s gonna have to be us. The people listening to this now, it’s gonna have to be you. Because Sean O’Brien can’t do it himself. Shawn Fain can’t do it himself.

It’s gonna have to be us. 

Brandon Mancilla: Yeah. Shawn Fain and the top officers on the executive board had the first ever virtual town hall with the UAW membership a couple of weeks ago, and they made it very clear that the big three auto companies, Ford, GM and Stellantis made a quarter of a trillion dollars over the last decade. So there should be no talk of a cost neutral contract. There should be a contract in which our members are making gains and benefiting from the profits that they themselves created through the work that they do. So we are being very clear in our messaging and our preparation for this contract fight.

It’s up to the companies to prevent further strike action. So we’re gonna have to end tiers. Tiers divide workers, give them different benefits, different pay for doing the exact same work, standing right next to each other, oftentimes; to reinstate COLA, implement stronger job protections, especially as this [electric vehicle] transition does threaten thousands and thousands of jobs of our members. And an increase in pensions for retirees. Retirees built this union and they have not seen any increase in many years. So this is something that we have to, for the sake of our, our union, for the sake of the labor movement, for the sake of, I think the working class as a whole, the UAW has so much potential to really reshape the labor movement and the conditions of workers who are also non-union, and also to continue organizing.

How are we going to be able to continue organizing in manufacturing in so many sectors if our contracts are tiered? If our contracts don’t have COLA, if our contracts don’t show that you’re gonna be making more than minimum wage or close to minimum wage, that’s something that’s unacceptable and something that with a union contract, we need to be doing better on.

I think what Dan touched upon is really essential. It’s not gonna be just Shawn Fain and the vice president’s going into a room and figuring it out, and then coming back and saying, “Here, take this deal.” It’s gonna have to be a legitimate struggle, a legitimate contract campaign. Shawn’s committed to not having backdoor secret negotiations, communicating constantly with the members about these negotiations and updating them and communicating constantly.

But that also means involving them, right? Having locals take action to prepare for these campaigns, making sure everyone knows what the demands are, making sure we’re talking with members and having rallies and parking lot conversations so that everyone is constantly aware of where we’re headed and not just in the dark until a TA is reached.

Teddy Ostrow: Thank you so much for unpacking that. I wanted to move on to what many listeners probably know by now, which is that the UAW doesn’t just organize auto or manufacturing workers, right?

They’ve organized a large number of higher education workers, for some time now actually. So Brandon, this is your industry, for people who might ask why the UAW is in higher education. Can you help unpack that a little bit and explain why you think we’re seeing so much activity in the sector? It might be one of the places where we could say there is a legitimate upsurge going on—lots of strikes, lots of organizing right now.

And sorry for the long question, but, I am also curious about how both of you think about the strengths or the dynamics of having seemingly different types of workers, “blue collar” versus “white collar” workers in the same union.

Brandon Mancilla: I think the important thing to say first is that the UAW has always been a diverse union in terms of sectors. It started off as an auto worker union, obviously, but very quickly started organizing in aerospace and military production, office professionals, and then expanded into gaming and expanded into public sector workers.

So it’s, it’s always been a union that represents more than just auto workers. Higher ed also has a longer history. I think there was a real push by office and clerical staff and secretaries to organize at universities, in the ‘70s and ‘80s. Then quickly after that, student workers and faculty also began organizing.

So the University of California, the University of Massachusetts, have been in the UAW since the 1990s. So that’s definitely not as recent as it may seem. But what really changed was the Columbia decision of 2016 which allowed student workers at private universities to organize and collectively bargain.

So since 2016 with the Columbia decision, Columbia University student workers, Harvard University student workers, and then everyone else right? That wave, it’s exploded to the point where, it’s almost a given that the minute an organizing drive takes off, it’s going to win.

My election at Harvard, our two elections were a real, real fight to win. Now elections are winning 80, 90% margins, right? It’s like employers are just forcing elections to buy time because they can’t actually beat the drive anymore. It’s taking off because like so many other sectors and so many other workers across the country, it’s an industry that is facing an existential crisis.

Working conditions are collapsing. People have little job security. They don’t know what they’re looking forward to anymore. In higher education specifically, especially for postdoctoral researchers and adjuncts and student workers, we’re facing a situation in which, it’s neither a stepping stone into a career that is gonna be more secure, nor is it a career in itself that’s sustainable.

So we have to actually organize to make those jobs that have union protections and COLA and strong health insurance and retirement packages, et cetera. So I think that’s what the struggle is. It’s actually acknowledging that so much work goes into sustaining and actually educating and researching in this country, and also taking control over the future of what higher education looks like, beyond just the bread and butter issues that our members are fighting for. We’re also trying to change the culture at these higher education institutions that have protected abusers, have protected people who have no problem taking advantage of workers in very precarious situations. And also pushing for education to be a public good, to make it free in this country and a universal right that people, if they want to, can benefit from. This is a worker led push. So the UAW has invested and made this a priority.

I think since so many of us have been in first contract, campaigns and organizing campaigns, we saw firsthand what the limits and the problems were with the UAW: where we lacked resources, where we lacked proper support, where the concessionary ideologies came from and we pushed back against that really hard.

At this point, I think that’s why a lot of higher ed workers have gravitated towards reform in large numbers because we don’t want to just simply win a union. We wanna win strong unions. And strong unions need to be democratic, they need to be transparent, they need to be participatory.

That’s something that aligns very much with the reform movement of the UAW amongst manufacturing workers. 

Daniel Vicente: Yeah. So it has been eye opening to get involved with the higher education people and honestly, the experiences that they’ve have had on their first drives, they’ve been able to bring that and teach us in the manufacturing field because we’ve been long established, manufacturers and leadership had grown stagnant. These higher education guys brought an energy and a level of knowledge to us that allowed us to organize better so that when we went into our constitutional conventions, we knew the rules and processes and how to get things passed. It’s been amazing to get to work with Brandon, but also student workers from California, all over the country, just because there’s so much opportunity for us to teach one another. In Detroit we had a session where the higher education workers allowed the manufacturers to come in after hours and we were able to listen in and kind of hear the issues going on with them.

And a lot of the differences between us were just language differences. We just call things, different things in manufacturing, like we know what whipsawing is. It just called something else in higher ed. The issues that they’re going through sound very similar to ours.

Particularly I remember being shocked hearing from the student workers in California and the grad students about how they work for these universities and then they live in university housing and then immediately have to pay back their wages to the university. It sounded exactly what the mine workers were going through in the 1920s, having to get paid scrip and, and it’s outrageous.

So the bridges that we’re building across sectors right now are amazing. We have so much to learn from one another, and it’s providing us information that we can use at the table across all sectors coming up. What appears to have happened is the UAW made a push about 10, 15 years ago to try to organize down south in the foreign automakers. And that did not go well. And then they reinvested in organizing higher education, and that has been massively, just overwhelmingly positive for us. We have a drive currently in my region, the University of Penn in Philadelphia, which we are very confident will be successful and would bring about 4,000 members into the region.

So we’re pushing it everywhere, and those are just a few drives and it’s been just great to work across sectors with my fellow workers and learn what’s going on with them, not just in higher ed, but in aerospace and agriculture. It’s been amazing.

Teddy Ostrow: I so appreciate hearing that because I think that there are often very bad faith arguments made to try to pit workers against one another, but really in the end, people are looking for similar things, the same things.

To wrap this up, I just want to give you guys a chance to speak to anything we haven’t touched on that you think is important to get out there to the Teamsters and, and to non Teamsters alike.

Daniel Vicente: If Teamsters are listening to this, while I was running this campaign for leadership in the UAW, I was pulling 10 hour shifts in a factory and I was working in the UPS warehouse in Westchester, Pennsylvania on a sorting line.

That job is brutal. 

It was effing brutal. The struggle for Teamsters is the same struggle we’re going through in the UAW. If you’re listening to this, like I said, briefly earlier, we’re under attack.

The working class in this country is under attack and we are tired of being paid lip service by one party or the other. I have no faith in either of them to come and save us. If you’re listening to this, it’s because you are interested and you care about what’s going on in your workplace as well.

And you see the injustices and the unfair system that we live in and we work in, and it’s gonna be up to us. We have to put our foot on the ground. Now, if we don’t do this now, we won’t have another opportunity. I am every day following what’s going on with the Teamsters, and it gives me so much strength and it fills my heart with pride.

We run this country, we make the money for these corporations. We’re not asking them to turn us into millionaires overnight. We’re asking them to allow us a path to live in the middle working class. That’s it. An insult to a Teamster, an attack on a Teamster is an attack on a United Auto Worker, a longshoreman.

All of ’em. All of them. 

We have to stand together in this country if we want to fight and get back what is due to us. The only way that’s gonna do that is with you listening, getting involved, talking to your coworkers. Like I said, I love Shawn Fain and Sean O’Brien. These dudes get me so worked up. But they can’t do it all on their own.

It’s gonna have to be us. And if you are in a shop and you feel that your local elected officials don’t represent you, run against them. Brandon and I are absolutely examples that it’s not impossible. Get involved, go to your local union meetings, run for whatever positions you can. This is up to us.

No one’s coming to do it for us. They’ve told us that there is no savior coming. You and I are gonna have to link up and we’re going to have to fight this fight not just for ourselves, but for our kids and for the future. And if we don’t do it now, corporate America will grind the middle class into nothing.

Brandon Mancilla: I also add to that, I think the UAW is going to be organizing. We need to grow the labor movement in order to build power. So if you are listening to this and you are not a member of a union, I think it’s essential for this to be the moment that you consider unionizing and, and reaching out to us or any other union that you think would fit your, your workplace.

So it’s extremely important that we’re fighting to improve the working conditions and the lives of our members who are already members of our union, but we are also looking to organize the rest of the unorganized working class. I’ll also say that, there’s been a lot of talk about, Shawn Fain’s non endorsement of Joe Biden, and I think I just wanna make it clear that the reason we’re doing that, and the reason Shawn Fain decided to withhold his endorsement for now, is that we want commitments from the White House, from elected officials, that you’re not just gonna give us lip service, like Dan said, you’re actually gonna stand with us if we have to go on strike. You’re gonna stand with us on the bills that will protect our jobs, that will improve our working conditions and organizing conditions for the labor movement, and not just saying that support unions. 

Joe Biden’s done a number of good things for the labor movement. But he also stood in the way of the railroad workers. Shawn Fain fully believes that that was a test of the White House. With the Teamsters UPS negotiations going on and big three negotiations coming up, that’s another test for our elected officials, not just for Joe Biden.

So next time they come around asking for our endorsements and support in elections, there’s gonna be a scorecard. How’d you do in supporting us as we went out after these companies to win stronger contracts? 

So that’s the position we’re taking and it’s a strong one. It’s one that I think more unions should take, should be less afraid of, of taking real direct stands about where the labor movement is in relation to Democrats. But you know, I think part of growing the labor movement is having a political stance.

Teddy Ostrow: Brandon Mencia and Dan Vicente, thank you guys so much, for coming on The Upsurge.

Daniel Vicente: Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you for having us, and if the Teamsters go out, we’ll be on your lines as well. 

Brandon Mancilla: Absolutely solidarity.

You just listened to a public bonus episode of The Upsurge.

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

If you’re listening but are not yet our supporter patreon, please if you liked the show, if you want it to keep going, head over to patreon.com/upsurgepod and become a patron today.

If you haven’t already, follow us on Twitter @upsurgepod, Facebook, The Upsurge, and you can also find full episodes now on our YouTube Channel, The Upsurge. Go spread it far and wide, leave us ratings, likes, comments. All the good stuff. 

Thanks so much to our patrons who are keeping the show going.

The podcast was edited by myself.

It was produced by NYGP and Ruby Walsh.

Music is by Casey Gallagher.

The cover art was done by Devlin Claro Resetar.

I’m Teddy Ostrow. Thanks for listening and catch you next time. 

Negotiations between UPS and the Teamsters have collapsed after disagreement over part-timer wages. With less than a month from contract expiration, the largest single-employer strike in US history is looking more and more likely.

We have another two-part episode this week. First, an update on the contract campaign. The Teamsters gave UPS two deadlines for their last, best, and final offer on proposals. UPS hasn’t met either of them. So the union is upping the ante with practice pickets around the country. 

Could a deal materialize or is a strike imminent? We asked Stephen Franklin, a veteran journalist who is the former labor writer for the Chicago Tribune, and an adjunct professor at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign School of Labor and Employment Relations.

Next, a deep dive into gig work at UPS and subcontracting more broadly. The Teamsters want to rid their workforce of so-called personal vehicle drivers (PVDs), workers who deliver packages out of their private vehicles and work off a smartphone app, much like other gig workers. We spoke with UPS workers from Georgia, Utah, and California, and a former gig worker from Indiana, about why gig work and other subcontracting is an existential threat to the union.

Gig work is often pitched as flexible for the worker. But in reality, it’s a breakdown of standards that many Teamsters want to uphold at all costs. Even if that means going out on strike.

Additional links/info below…

• Support the show at Patreon.com/upsurgepod.
• Follow us on Twitter @upsurgepod, Facebook, The Upsurge, and YouTube @upsurgepod.
• Read Stephen Franklin’s piece on UPS/Teamsters negotiations in In These Times. Also check out Teddy’s article on UPS part-timers’ history, struggles, and organizing in Jacobin, and his appearances on Citations Needed and Bad Faith podcasts.

Hosted by Teddy Ostrow
Edited by Teddy Ostrow
Produced by NYGP & Ruby Walsh, in partnership with In These Times & The Real News
Music by Casey Gallagher
Cover art by Devlin Claro Resetar

Transcript

The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.

EMIL:  I know that last year, uh, P V D had their car just, just stolen. Uh, while they were making a delivery, they left the keys in the ignition and they got back in the car and all the packages were gone.

Teddy: What if I told you that not all UPS delivery people wore the brown uniform, nor do they all drive the iconic brown truck. That some are gig workers, that drive their own cars and work off an iphone app.

EMIL: these are kind of risks that are typical to gig workers. I know, you know, it’s not uncommon for people to get robbed, when they’re out there. it’s a risky situation and you don’t have the kind of protections that I do, you know, as, as a driver.

TEDDY: Gig work is often pitched as a flexible for the worker. But in reality, it’s a breakdown of standards that many Teamsters want to uphold at all costs. Even if that means, going out on strike.

Hello my name is Teddy Ostrow. Welcome to the Upsurge, a podcast about UPS, the Teamsters, and the future of the American labor movement.

This podcast unpacks the unprecedented labor fight this year at UPS. In July, the contract of over 340,000 UPS workers will expire and if those workers strike, which is a real possibility, it will be the largest strike against a single company in US history.

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

And now our short episodic plea: We are a listener-funded podcast. We cannot do this work without you. And it is a lot of work. So please, if you like the show, you have a few bucks to spare every month, head over to patreon.com/upsurgepod and become a supporter today. You can find the link in the description. 

Also, we have one more free one-year subscription to In These Magazine for the next person to sign up to our Patreon. Snag it today.

Alright onto the show. 

Teddy Ostrow: [00:00:00] Again, we’re coming to you with a two-part episode. First, an update on what’s been going on in the contract campaign, which has been a lot. The Teamsters gave UPS two deadlines for their last, best, and final offer on their economic proposals. And UPS hasn’t met either of them. Could a deal materialize or is a strike imminent? We asked veteran labor journalist Stephen Franklin.

In the second part, we covered a major issue UPSers have been organizing around. That is of course UPS’s use of gig workers to deliver packages, and subcontracting more broadly. The short of it is: the corporation wants to take solid, union jobs, and make them precarious, non-union ones. Stick around to hear what Teamsters and the gig workers themselves think. 

Emil Macdonald: I view gig work as a, as a scam. 

you’re like just a tool for the company to ship liability and like, uh, and maintenance and all these [00:01:00] other costs off themselves and unto you.

Teddy: But the update first. A lot has happened in negotiations since our last episode. The most recent news is that bargaining between the Teamsters and UPS has broken down. It appears that a strike may be imminent. 

We’ll get more into the details. But first, we want to bring to what’s happening on the ground. We noted it last episode: practice pickets are sprouting up across the country. That’s right, basically pretend picket lines. And since negotiations have broken down, the union has vowed to up the ante. 

Chris Wallace, the package car driver from Local 89 we spoke to in episode 4, was nice enough bring us to his local’s practice picket at enormous Worldport Airhub in Louisville.

Teamster: Who away? Team stars. Who? Team stars? Who away? Team stars.

Joe Sexton: My name’s Joe Sexton. I’m a next year [00:02:00] steward at uh, UPS World Report, and I’m a 23 year team steward Teamster, local 89. what we’re doing out here is we’re doing a, basically a practice strike to get our members energized for the, the, the possibility of us striking the company, uh, to spread information and knowledge, to educate their members on what a strike is, what’s going on with the strike, uh, how we will conduct it.

 and that’s, that’s basically what we’re doing out here today.

For those of you who haven’t gone on strike before, it may seem pretty simple. You just stop working, stand outside your workplace, hold a picket sign, walk around in circles, and chant. And that is kind of what you do on strike. But even that an for inexperienced workforce, can take some practice. I saw it first hand at Local 804’s practice picket in Brooklyn. 

[TKTK – TONY ROSARIO CLIP]

Teddy Ostrow: There tried and trusted methods to bolster the [00:03:00] impact of a strike. First and foremost is to keep people from crossing the picket line. If UPS can keep its packages flowing, the workers pretty much have no leverage. But there are some legal liabilities, and the union has  to make sure the strikers keep out of trouble. Back to Louisville.

Cody: Alright. Can you hear me now? Yeah. Okay, here we go. All right. So my name’s Cody. Uh, I’m the attorney for the local. And, uh, I just wanted to talk a little bit about, uh, how to, uh, keep the picket line local, right?

The, the company, if you all do go on strike. If we do go on strike, the company is gonna allege, uh, in somewhat. Some form or another that our, uh, picket would be unlawful. So, uh, local 89 engages unlawful pickets, right? Right. So in order to do that, uh, there’s certain things that, uh, you all have to do.

Number one is you have to stick together. That’s the biggest thing. Everyone has to stick together. 

[00:04:00] All you have to do is look on social media and you’ll see that every day, the Teamsters strike threat becomes more and more credible.

[WE’RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT]

Now, to discuss negotiations, I spoke with Stephen Franklin, a veteran labor journalist who is the former labor writer for the Chicago Tribune. He’s a Pulitzer Prize finalist and an adjunct professor at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign School of Labor and Employment Relations. 

I invited him on the show because he just wrote a piece for In These Times magazine titled “Can the Teamsters and UPS reach a deal?” It’s a really good question, so I gave him a call. 

Stephen Franklin, welcome to the upsurge. Thank you for inviting me here. [00:05:00] So let’s start with a recap of what’s been happening. Uh, when we posted our last episode, the teamsters in UPS just came to dozens of TAs on non-economic issues. Uh, they made some progress there, it seems, you know, most, most notably on air conditioning, which was certainly a major demand.

Um, they moved on to economic issues, which of course, uh, are some of the big ticket items. That’s wages, health and welfare benefits, pensions, paid holidays, um, but also, you know, what will be done on forced overtime and gig workers. So, n now what’s, what’s happened since they began discussing the economics?

Well, they’ve collapsed, uh, and essentially reemphasize they, what’s so unusual about this negotiations and union negotiations? Uh, Uh, the union typically never says, we got this. We got that. We got this. This is very different. This is what Sean O’Brien has been doing, and that’s changed and they have had one, a number of, uh, of victories and he see is constantly repeated.

Uh, it appears to be that they’ll be, um, [00:06:00] wiping away the second tier wages. They’ll be wiping away the, uh, mandatory sixth day. Um, that list, that’s the union has said, we have no idea where the company, the company’s very tight mouthed on all of this except saying that they want, um, a contract that lets them stay flexible.

So there’s where we’re at and all of a sudden they hit a bump. Um, the, uh, the company says the union walked away from negotiations and union says, no, they didn’t. Um, uh, that it was a mutual, uh, uh, departure. Uh, so we’re, we’re at a, um, a point of, uh, interesting change. Uh, I’m gonna expect that they’re not gonna get back to talks in the next few days or maybe week or so that the union’s going to step up.

Its, uh, activities, step up. Its, um, picketing practices, uh, make its, uh, effort more known. Uh, I’m also going to, uh, predict that the bottom line issues are going to be increasing the wages [00:07:00] for part-time workers who start today at 1550 an hour. Um, and dealing with the, uh, Small, but increasingly a large number of uh, people who like gig workers, drive their own vehicles and make deliveries.

These are called private vehicle drivers. That’s a lot of great context. Yeah. I want to just say, you know, uh, before we get to a little bit more, uh, we, at the beginning of this discussion, we, we mentioned, you know, the, the bump that is, uh, negotiations breaking down. But the before that, you know, there has been a couple bumps and, and the union said, you know, uh, we have a deadline for a last best and final offer from you ups.

Uh, June 30th, that date came and went. They said, then July 5th, that date came and went. Um, you know, it seems like this is a bargaining strategy of some sorts, as you said. Uh, you know, maybe a deal could be reached, but yeah, let me, let me just bring it back to that you started to unpack that a bit, you know, given [00:08:00] all that’s occurred, um, the back and forth, uh, the leaking of UPS’s counter proposal, which really, really angered a number of UPSers.

You know, tell me, can, can the teamsters in UPS still reach a deal? Yeah, I think that, look, there’s no question they can reach a deal. I think they, what this is a very unique, um, labor negotiations. Typically unions don’t announce every single victory. Typically, they don’t warn the company a month in advance.

They’re walking out. Um, so Sean has brought a whole new strategy, um, to the, to the, uh, what the union is doing. Um, and so I think my gut feeling is that. Um, I could be very far, you know, very wrong that it all depends upon the last few days and if he can walk away with a deal that looks like a victory for him, um, cuz he’s blown up the expectations so dramatically.

Um, now I’ve been talking to Teamsters around the country and, um, as you know, [00:09:00] um, this is a. This is an empire of many different parts. Uh, the folks at the very top are, are eager to get a contract, but not as eager as a part-timers and, and so there’s a d divisions there. Again, I think that the situation will come down to the end.

The danger for the teamsters is that, uh, a strike means less volume, less work, less work means layoffs. The company has been laying off workers. Um, and the explanations of workers here is that the strike is coming, but volume is down. The danger for the company is that if it does go into a strike it, it’s competitors who are all non-union will quickly seize that work.

So I think both of them were going to tip up to the edge. The company must show it’s flexible, it can make money, and, and there are several reasons why it needs to make money in a declining market, and that’s very important The union. Sean May have, you know, [00:10:00] made a mistake in setting such high goals. But if he emphasizes again, has, he repeatedly has, you know, great victories on economic, economic issues, some apparent victories and economic issues, it’s been a success.

The union has won a lot. They, they scared the company into that. He can walk away. It all depends on how he promotes it. And, um, and then ultimately how it goes back to the membership. Remember, The last time the, the membership voted in 2018, they, they thought it was a stinky deal and they voted it down and then the union said, I’m sorry, we don’t listen to workers.

So they overruled that. Um, so that’s, that’s how I see it. Talk about, you know, uh, the importance of this for the Teamster membership, uh, getting a good deal, and beyond that, um, whether it’s a good deal, uh, with no strike or with a strike. What does this mean for the labor movement? Well, for the union of the Labor movement, remember, um, there’s only in about the 1970s we saw the, the introduction of two-tier [00:11:00] wages and, um, and so, you know, the u a W.

Collapsed on that issue and instead of many other companies and also the collapse of pensions, that has not happened. Um, with the, with the teamsters, they still have their pensions, but it’s the two-tier wages. So the union needs to push back against the two-tier wage system. That is, is a critical thing.

Um, all because again, when you look at, you know, if you start, I was talking to a teamster yesterday and she’s been on the job for 11 years as a part-timer, um, and she makes $20 an hour. It’s not a lot of money and she says she can’t live on it. Most part-timers work, um, two or three jobs if possible. So, Just to get by.

Why they work as part-timers for many is that they get this great insurance policy. So it’s a, it’s a golden handcuffs. So for, for labor. The, what the teams are doing is what the u a w may do is that take on an aggressive populist approach. If they can win, it’ll set a message back to [00:12:00] unions that have been, you know, again, slipping backwards on their heels, trying to, you know, survive, uh, making small gains that you can stand up and do these things.

The, the problem though is that, um, the dialogue for the last 20 years has really been dominated by what companies have to say. We’re in, you know, we are competing globally, which in many cases is bullshit. Um, you know, when, when American companies dominate the world as Caterpillar for many years, it wiped away, uh, the victories of the UAW had had.

And so two tier wages, loss of pensions, um, the, the inability to set, uh, a broad scale, you know, for other companies, all of this is at stake. And if the teams just can win, then maybe the u i w, although they’re gonna have far more difficult problems, uh, with the, because they, their auto companies are not as stable as, as, as u p s, you know, despite the great publicity about the fights for, uh, organizing, [00:13:00] um, barristers and, and folks and smaller companies, blue collar, large unions have not won major victories in the United States.

And, and that’s where this can be very important. There’s a long trail of who will benefit from this. If, if the Teamsters win, it’ll benefit unions. If unions win, it’ll benefit. Um, the Democrats, it may show unions may have a point, and the failure of blue collar workers to show allegiance or support as they once did for Democrat votes will be returned in some way.

So I think there’s a, there’s a whole string of potential impacts here. At the same time, it was a string of potential losses. So it’s a, it is a risky situation. Steven Franklin, thanks for joining me on the upsurge. Thank you for inviting me. Bye.

That was Stephen Franklin and you can find his piece in In These Times linked to in the description. You should expect more of his coverage [00:14:00] of the UPS negotiations coming soon.

Teddy Ostrow: [00:00:00] And now for the second part of the show. 

Picture this. You ordered something online, you see that UPS is shipping it. It’ll come in a few days. You’re waiting anxiously at home, and suddenly someone pulls up in front of your home in a… Toyota. They get out of the car, package in hand, and begin walking down your driveway to your front door. There’s no brown truck, no brown uniform. Maybe a orange construction vest, and, well, a Toyota, packed to the brim with cardboard boxes. How the heck can they see out their back window, you wonder?

That person that you saw isn’t a typical UPS worker. They’re called a PVD, or personal vehicle driver. They’re called that for obvious an reason. They deliver UPS packages out of their personal vehicles, and they work through a smart phone app, kinda like other gig workers, like Uber and [00:01:00] lift drivers, or doordash delivery people.

In this episode, we’re gonna dig into these mysterious PVDs. You’ll hear from some UPS package car drivers.

Demetria Shaw: Now, the first thing I thought was, I mean, hey, I wouldn’t be tearing up my car like that,

Teddy Ostrow: And you’ll hear from a PVD themself. What’s it’s like to do gig work at Big Brown. 

PVD: yeah, it was kind of, kind of crazy how they just kind of threw me to the wolves there and just, You know, never meeting me, seeing me, just here’s 300 packages, let’s put ’em in your garage and you go deliver ’em.

Teddy Ostrow: Now, we haven’t touched on PVDs much in The Upsurge. But their existence are among the central issues of this year’s contract campaign. The Teamsters want to get rid them, because they represent a threat to UPSers’ coveted, union jobs. 

Emil Macdonald:  you know, it, UPS would like nothing more than to replace a large part of the package car, uh, driver’s job, with.

[00:02:00] Employees that they can hire and fire at will as they need them.

Teddy Ostrow: But the problem isn’t just PVDs. The problem is also subcontracting in general, or hiring non-union workers to do union work. Teamsters see this as an existential threat.

Tony Winters: The loss of jobs, has been extremely hazardous and it’s, causing turmoil anxiety 

 it’s causing desperation, it’s causing. Heartache

Teddy Ostrow: There’s not that much information out there about PVDs. I struggled to find even a figure on how many there are, but they certain reach the thousands. So, this wasn’t the simplest of episodes to make. My intuition was first to go talk to some package car drivers. After all, they are the ones who interact with the PVDs the most, and it’s their work that’s being taken by people in their personal vehicles. So I called [00:03:00] one.

Demetria Shaw: Demetrius Shaw, everybody at work calls me D Shaw. I don’t know why. I guess they. Try to break down the name and they run my name together. Um, I’ve been with ups, it’ll be 18 years in July. 

Teddy Ostrow: Demetria has been a package car driver for 15 years in Atlanta, Georgia, out of Teamsters Local 728. We spoke as she sat in her car between errands, with her young son in the backseat. I asked her to tell me about when she first became aware of these gig-like workers. She said it was it roughly five years ago.

Demetria Shaw: I would see them at the gate, you know, waiting to come in or pulling in, you know, waiting to fill up their cars. Now, the first thing I thought was, I mean, hey, I wouldn’t be tearing up my car like that, but, but technically in the beginning, I really didn’t think anything of it.[00:04:00] 

Teddy Ostrow: Demetria wasn’t alone. PVDs started appear around the country during peak season, that’s around holidays when delivery work gets really busy. They’ve been around as early as 2017 in some areas. And as the years went on, drivers started to see more and more of them every peak. The problems started to become evident.

Demetria Shaw: So, so my idea changed, um, once the like senior, less senior drivers, you know, were getting off early. And I kept asking, why are these people getting off so early? I mean, what is the, the thing?

Normally during peak season, workers would expect a decent amount of overtime. But PVDs started eating into that, which was frustrating for some workers. Especially because some of these PVDs were being paid a few bucks more per hour than less senior drivers. Meanwhile, regular package car [00:05:00] drivers were being told to go meet up wtih these gig workers at their houses, at random meet up spots, specifically to take work off their brown truck and give it to the PVDs.

 you know, so it, it, it started to be an issue. You know, you’re taking thousands of packages to these, you know, pods for these people to pull up and load their cars and trucks up. Yeah. So, uh, it was crazy. It was crazy

Teddy Ostrow: Within a few years UPS’s use of these PVDs became systematic. Gig workers in their personal cars were working 9-5 jobs at UPS during peak season. Some even got overtime bonuses.

Emil Macdonald: that was sort of the way that UPS handled all the excess, residential volume during peak season, was to use seasonal drivers.

Teddy Ostrow: That’s Emil Macdonald from Local 315 in Martinez, California, another package car driver. He’s been at UPrS [00:06:00] for less time than Demetria, but he too saw the rise of PVDS. He entered the package car right before the covid pandemic started, shortly before the ecommerce boom had drivers working six days a week, up to 14 hours a day..  

Emil Macdonald: we basically had to deal with this huge, huge increase in demand people ordering toilet paper. whatever they needed through the mail to, you know, because a lot of stuff was shut down.

And, um, so we got really backed up. There were just piles and piles of packages stacked up in the hubs and in trailers out in the yard, and stuff was arriving like a week late. And you’d go out there and you’d like hit your maximum hours and you’d still have, you know, 40, 50 packages left on your truck when you got back to the building.

Teddy Ostrow: The explosion of volume was untenable. Something had to give.

Emil Macdonald: And after a while, uh, my understanding is that in many places, including mine, the union was able to come [00:07:00] to an agreement with the company to use Pbds, um, to help get, get through some of this excess volume.

peak season is when UPS is contractually allowed to use seasonal drivers. And, um, so as worse as you used to have a certain number of seasonal drivers delivering at U-Haul, now you have, uh, I’m guessing probably depending on the time, you know, 30, 40, 50 drivers, uh, delivering outta their cars.

Teddy Ostrow: The rise of PVDs caught many locals off guard. But Emil explained that a lot drivers actually appreicated the help. During peak season they no longer were working 12 to 14 hour days, struggling to finish their delivery routes to get home at 11pm at night.

During the height of COVID, there was so much work that some Teamster locals agreed to let UPS use PVDs year round. And the practice still [00:08:00] stands. But for many drivers, it started to get excessive. According to Emil, some UPS package car drivers, their entire route was simply dropping off packages to different PVDs, instead of just delivering those packages to homes and businesses themselves.

Emil and other Teamsters activists started see this gig work for what it is.

Emil Macdonald: I’ll tell you with PVDs, like a lot of drivers understand the threat that this poses to our work over the long term. you know, it, UPS would like nothing more than to replace a large part of the package car, driver’s job, specifically residential deliveries, with.

Employees that they can hire and fire at will as they need them. It could save them a lot in terms of how many, uh, package cars they send out.

Teddy Ostrow: in other words, PVDs are more disposable than protected, union package car drivers. And that’s pretty cost effective for the company. Other gig workers like Uber and [00:09:00] Lyft drivers are often misclassified as independent contractors. Meaning they’re not employees and they don’t get all the protections that come with that status. 

PVDs actually are employees. They’re seasonal employees that are technically covered in the union contract, and some even pay union fees to be able to work. But the problem is there’s rarely enough time for the union to reach out to them. The casual and transient nature of the work means these workers can’t really exercise the rights and protections they’re supposed to have on the job. 

Teamsters fear that their proliferation could create a wedge for UPS’s further deterioration of their union jobs.

Emil Macdonald: the key with this contract is that when we talk about this issue, 

 it’s a threat to what we bring to the table as UPS driver, just kind of a de-skilling of, the kind of expertise that we bring to the job. So if, if UPS can sort of make this sort of package car driver roll easier to replace, [00:10:00] they would love to do that.

Teddy Ostrow: Some locals in the union have been fighting back through arbitration, or the procedure unions have to address any company violations of the contract. Indeed, in 2018 national master agreement, there’s actually some language that was intended to prohibit PVDs. Article 26. Section 1: 

“No package car driver shall be forced to use his or her personal vehicle to deliver packages.”

Clear as day. And that was reflected in some arbitration wins by the union, at Local 804 in New York and 710 in Chicago. But nonetheless, the practice has continued, and many UPSers want stronger language in the next contract to put an end to PVDs once and for all. 

Now, we’ve been talking a lot about PVDs, but I also wanted to talk to a PVD. After all it’s these drivers that are working the apparently deteriorated version of the delivery position. 

PVD: I started [00:11:00] at P V D, I think it was summer, uh, or winter October-ish, November of 21

Teddy Ostrow: That’s Chris Weathers out of Lafayette, Indiana. He was a PVD in the peak 2021. And he first heard about the gig when his friend posted about it on social media.

He put something on Facebook, that UPS was offering, you know, a bonus. I was like, yeah, hey, I, I could use the money. So, I did that and um, I put my application in literally like two days later. I was delivering,The whole thing was pretty informal. Chris wasn’t even interviewed. He applied and…

PVD: then the next day Todd had called me, my center manager, and he’s like, Hey, uh, can you start work? And then I was like, you know, what do I, well do I come in, what do I do? And he is like, no, we’ll just drop your packages off at your house tomorrow. And then they’ll come with a phone. There really wasn’t much guidance.

Teddy Ostrow: UPS’s system for dealing with PVDs is different around the country. Some get more guidance than [00:12:00] others. But for Chris, there was barely any training, no orientation, nothing. Which was strange to him because it’s a pretty physical job, and it’s easy to hurt yourself carrying heavy packages. 

PVD: I didn’t go to the center or nothing. I had blind, you know, they showed up and the, the guy, the kid that was drop dropping the stuff off to me, he is like, he’s like, uh, yeah, I don’t have a phone for you or anything.

And I’m like, well, how do, how do I know what to do? And he’s like, maybe they’re coming, maybe they’re not. So, um, yeah, it was kind of, kind of crazy how they just kind of threw, threw me to the wolves there and just, You know, never meeting me, seeing me, just here’s 300 packages, let’s put ’em in your garage and you go deliver ’em.

Teddy Ostrow: Chris learned the ropes pretty fast. He eventually was given a DIAD, you know, those electronic scanners that UPSers have that make the beeping sound. Later on, UPS would make a phone app version with the same technology so real DIADs weren’t [00:13:00] needed. 

But Chris was never told much about his protections on the job.

 I didn’t know what kind of contract they, you know, what their rules and regulations, what, what they followed, you know, what was in their book or anything. In a way this was kinda par for course. Many of the people who do PVD work are doing other gig work, that’s often less consistent and more chaotic. According to Emil, at his UPS hub, many of them are immigrants.

Emil Macdonald: Despite the lack of training, Chris thankfully had very few issues. It was actually a good gig. Ok money, relatively consisent, albeit for only few months. But that isn’t case for everyone. Here’s Emil again:

 I know that last year, uh, P V D had their car just, just stolen. while they were making a delivery, they left the keys in the ignition and they got back in the car and all the packages were gone.

Teddy Ostrow:  these are kind of risks that are typical to gig workers. I know, you know, it’s not uncommon for [00:14:00] people to get robbed,  when they’re out there. you’re putting your own car risk in these situations as well.rr

Emil Macdonald: it’s a risky situation and you don’t have the kind of protections that I do, you know, as, as a driver.

Teddy Ostrow: Looking through social media from PVD drivers. You start to see the problems with this kind of set up. People know the iconic brown UPS truck, but it shouldn’t be surprise that some people are suspicious when a person in a passenger car pulls up to their home unannounced. Stories emerged of PVDs being held at gunpoint, even shot at. Dog bites are common. 

Some workers in some areas get accident insurance from UPS. But others dont. And accidents aside, UPS isn’t paying for other hidden costs, like oil changes, tune ups — just the normal wear and tear of driving your car for a living. 

Like [00:15:00] other gig workers across the economy, PVDs take on many risks and costs that would normally be the company’s. 

After getting into the research for this episode, it became clear, however, that the PVD problem was just one facet of a much larger issue at UPS. 

 I think you’d almost need to call it just a subcontracting episode. you can’t focus on the PVDs,That’s Tony Winters, a feeder driver from Salt Lake City, Utah out of Local 222, who I met on Facebook. He drives the semi-truck, carrying big loads of packages between UPS distribution centers. While PVDs are taking package car drivers’ work. Other subcontractors, or non-union workers hired from outside the company, are eating heavily into unionized feeder work. But Tony explained that it doesn’t stop there.

Tony Winters: Subcontracting can basically take many different forms within the company, and honestly, it’s a pretty vague term. Most work in the bargaining [00:16:00] unit could probably be done by teamsters, but other avenues are obviously taken by the company. This subcontracting can cover car washers, gateway jobs at airports, PVDs, and then common carriers in the Peter department

Teddy Ostrow: The ways UPS subcontracts out work can get pretty confusing. Tony tried to get me up to speed.

Tony Winters: . I’m just trying to make it as concise as possible because it’s, it’s madness.

Teddy Ostrow: The short of it is that UPS can save money by hiring other non-union truck companies to do work that union workers could easily do.

In addition to delivering packages, UPS also provides “logistics services” to other companies. In other words, they help other corporations figure out how to move their products or materials from A to B to C. Supply chain management it’s called. 

And suprise, suprise they often [00:17:00] advise companies not to use Teamster semi-truck drivers. 

UPS even bought a whole other company called Coyote Logistics, which is like a platform for non-union contractors to pick up loads around the country.

Unlike unionized UPS drivers, and much like PVDs, these contractors, which may just be one individual who owns a big truck, are footed with a whole host of liabilities.

Tony Winters: These common carriers have to cover their own insurance fuel, roadside breakdowns.

There’s a laundry list of everything that they have to attempt to pay for with the small pile of money that they end up getting. So it is honestly meant for the company to save money and potentially bankrupt other small, possibly mom and pop trucks. It’s a dirty deal. 

Teddy Ostrow:  Now, some of this subcontracting is contractually permitted. The previous Teamsters leadership allowed UPS [00:18:00] to get away with quite a lot. For example, UPS dispatches so-called sleeper teams. That’s when two truck drivers are sent on a 24-driving operation. One of them drives for 12 hours then sleeps in the truck, while the other one takes the second shift. 

If normal union feeder drivers are available, UPS isn’t allowed to use subcontractors. But because of the way the system is set up, it’s very hard to track. Which means UPS may be violating the contract constantly.

Tony explained what this means for drivers.

Tony Winters: Just layoffs. Unfortunately, there’s a number of people in my building alone that are sitting there maybe getting one punch a week, or not even getting called at all for weeks at a time because of this displacement.

Teddy Ostrow: Feeder drivers are among the best paid union jobs at UPS, but if your work being [00:19:00] taken by subcontractors, that doesn’t mean all the much. And the problem in the past year has been getting worse.

Tony Winters: The loss of jobs, even in my domicile in Salt Lake, has been extremely hazardous and it’s, causing turmoil anxiety because people aren’t getting anywhere near what they were paycheck wise a year ago.

So it’s causing desperation, it’s causing. Heartache. It’s, I think it’s, it’s absolutely could possibly be weaponized against the bargaining unit just to make them desperate to take whatever’s offered.

Teddy Ostrow: And it’s so bad, that some people have grown cynical and hopeless.

it’s purely done by the company to make people lose faith in their union. Back to UPS’s gig work iteration of subcontracting. [00:20:00] A few years ago UPS bought another company called Roadie. It’s basically a gig company for package delivery, but it’s unclear just how many workers they have. Workers are concerned that still more work will be taken off their package cars. 

But even worse, some Teamsters are concerned that when you combine this unknown number of Roadie gig workers, with the thousands of PVDs UPS employs, the company may just have enough people to keep operations going in the case of strike come August 1.

UPS’s legion of gig workers, in other words, is a waiting army of strike breakers. It’s pretty unclear whether UPS can actually do this, and when I asked Demetria from Georgia what she thought, she was skeptical.

Demetria Shaw: well, if they do use them, it won’t work. and the reason why I say that is because they’ve never been trained to be in these, in, in the UPS truck, you know? [00:21:00] They would have to go out and get drugs or they’ll have to go, they’ll have to figure, try to figure out how to move all this volume.

you’re talking about people who, you know, they don’t have no idea how to, you know, get out there and get it like we do where they try to use them. Yes. Will it work? No.

Teddy Ostrow: We may just have to wait and see. And for supporters of the Teamsters union, you may just have to hope that Demetria is correct.

Back to Chris Weathers, the PVD you heard from earlier. He’s actually not a PVD anymore. He’s one of the rare few to go on and get job a union job at UPS. He’s now a second-tier package car driver at Teamsters Local 710, and he’s aware that his experience as a PVD is the exception. 

PVD: I was more led to believe that it was more of a stepping stone, you know, Hey, you do a good job, [00:22:00] you know, this is your stepping stone to get in. That’s kind of the impression that I, I was given by management

But, you know, from what I understand, my case where I came from PVD and got straight on is, uh, not very often happens that way.

Teddy Ostrow: And of course, that’s by design. Hiring more union drivers with their benefits and protections, is expensive. And as a public corporation, profit and stock price is UPS’s bottom line. But many of the PVDs who I’ve corresponded with online told me that they actually liked the gig and would do it again. Some are upset by the prospect of Teamsters pushing them out. 

But Emil sometimes tries to talk to them about it.

Emil Macdonald: You know, a lot of times I try to, talk to them about, how great a UPS career is, about the benefits and the pay, and try to talk ’em into, trying to get hired on as a part-timer, uh, and ups and eventually try to work into the package car driver role.

Teddy Ostrow: [00:23:00] You know, um, it’s great money while you’re doing it and you know, in many cases PVDs are actually making more than package car drivers. And so it’s a great, you know, it’s a great opportunity for, a month or two until it goes away. But long term, if you want the pension and the benefits and the $40 an hour pay, you gotta be union back scrub driver. Emil doesn’t know any PVDs where he is that have moved up the ladder to a union job. But he when talks to them, he speaks from experience. He himself has worked as an Uber and Lyft driver.

Emil Macdonald: I just think it’s like having been a gig worker, I just see it as kind of a, a dead end. It’s a great way to keep your head above water, to have a little bit of flexibility But you know, the difference between, being a Lyft driver and a UPS driver is huge.

Teddy Ostrow: And don’t just take it from Emil. Here’s Chris again

PVD: Now I see that because I, I realize what they’re doing. I feel like they’re just [00:24:00] trying to, you know, make money for themselves. 

I don’t think the problem with, with, uh, with PVDs is so much as them stealing us work.

Uh, our work, it’s them overloading them and taking work, you know, not guaranteeing our guys ate, uh, 

Teddy Ostrow: Some Teamsters have suggested that if UPS is gonna use PVDs, maybe they could just give them more protections or let part-timer who are looking for more work take the job. But others won’t have it.

Emil Macdonald: I want our next contract to prohibit DVDs. I think as a principal we should not be expecting people to deliver out of their own cars.

Teddy Ostrow: Even Chris thinks keeping them in any fashion, would be too risky.

PVD: basically, they, they’ve made it to where we can’t give ’em the wiggle room of the P B D, if there’s a way that UPS can get around it, 

 You know, you, you’re throwing someone in a personal vehicle.

Then, you know, [00:25:00] cramming packages down their throat and expecting them to go out there and withhold, the same level as, as drivers are, you know, and they’re not because they’re not trained. Right. it makes sense, you know, that’s why that, that’s why, uh, if we do that, it just gives them too much room and it just tears our union down, I think.

Teddy Ostrow: Emil thinks that with PVDs, UPS is setting itself up to cut into the market of what a lot non-union companies are doing. UPS executives have claimed that their main competitors no longer FedEx or the US postal service, but gig companies like UberEats and Doordash.

Emil Macdonald: they’re looking at this landscape and they’re saying all these other companies are doing same day delivery.

Amazon flex drivers, you know, they’re generally people who are delivering out of their cars, and if you order something and you’re, you’re close enough to an Amazon flex hub, you can get that package in two to three hours. 

But the dark side of course is what we’ve been hearing. Amazon, Uber, and Doordash can do that because it comes with a cost — to the workers. To Emil, it’s just [00:26:00] a scam.

All, all these sorts of expenses to come up from, you know, using your own car to deliver, I think. People don’t really factor in that. That’s a cost that the company is shifting away from itself and onto you.

And even though your paycheck may say that you made $150 that day, after you subtract all those, you know, extra costs that the company has shifted onto you, you know, you’re really making a lot closer to minimum wage. So I view gig work as a, as a scam. and I think it’s been a very, effective scam.

Because of the flexibility that it gives to, you know, gives to employees. But in reality you’re like just a tool for the company to ship liability and like, uh, and maintenance and all these other costs off themselves and unto you.

Teddy Ostrow: At the end of the day, the Teamsters’ battle against PVDs and subcontracting in general is about protecting good, union jobs. And it’s about rejecting Wall Street’s vision of a flexible workforce, exploitable [00:27:00] with unlivable wages and the constant risk of being disposed of at the boss’s whim.

We want that work to be going to, uh, to union members. I wanna see that worker be able to get a union job at U UPS and be able to provide for his family, you know, for the rest of his life, not for one month, a year during the Christmas season.

You just listened to episode 10 of The Upsurge. 

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

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The podcast was edited by myself

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I’m Teddy Ostrow. Thanks for listening and catch you next time.

The results are in: 97% of UPS Teamsters voted to authorize a strike if their demands are not met by August 1. Local unions around the country will practice picket lines starting next week. The clock is ticking.

Following the recording of this episode of The Upsurge, the Teamsters announced that its National Negotiating Committee would no longer meet with UPS following “an appalling economic counterproposal.” Contract negotiations appear to be stalled until “money gets real,” which makes the probability of a strike higher than before.

In this episode, we’ve got a two-parter. First, an update on the contract campaign and negotiations, which have moved onto big-ticket economic items this week. UPSers across the nation tell us why they voted in favor of strike authorization. Local 623 secretary-treasurer Richard Hooker Jr. breaks down the vote and a major tentative agreement: air conditioning in the package car. Greg Kerwood of Local 25 returns to the show to explain why the Teamsters and the broader labor movement need a strike.

Next, long-time organizer and the Executive Director of In These Times Alex Han gives us a crash course on the threads of labor militancy over the past two decades. Alex breaks down the political, social, and organizational legacies of the labor movement between 1997, the last time UPSers struck, and 2023, when they may strike again in much larger numbers. At the center of our conversation: the Chicago Teachers Strike of 2012.

We often hear that COVID-19 pushed workers over the edge, that the widespread death and disease was the viral spark for a new labor upsurge in the United States. But according to Alex, the seeds for this moment were sown over the last twenty years. 

Additional links/info below…

• Support the show at Patreon.com/upsurgepod.
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Hosted by Teddy Ostrow
Edited by Teddy Ostrow & Ruby Walsh
Produced by NYGP & Ruby Walsh, in partnership with In These Times & The Real News
Music by Casey Gallagher
Cover art by Devlin Claro Resetar

Transcript

The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.

Alex Han: There’s obviously a lot to be said about the impact of the pandemic. but these things were all in motion long before, the pandemic, reared up.

these things were going to be on a collision course. 

Teddy: We often hear that COVID-19 pushed workers over the edge. Indeed, you’ve probably heard it on this show. That the widespread death and disease was the viral spark for a new labor upsurge in the United States.

we’ve seen the impact of, Amazon and Its relationship and stranglehold to some degree on the logistics and delivery chain, that was something that was supercharged by the pandemic, but the outlines of that impact were very clear. beforehand.

 History, in other words, didn’t disappear after 2020. The seeds of our moment were planted far earlier, and there’s no better time than now to begin tracing the roots.

 (Music transition) 

Teddy Ostrow: Hello my name is Teddy Ostrow. Welcome to the Upsurge, a podcast about UPS, the Teamsters, and [00:01:00] the future of the American labor movement.

This podcast unpacks the unprecedented labor fight this year at UPS. In July, the contract of over 340,000 UPS workers will expire and if those workers strike, which is a real possibility, it will be the largest strike against a single company in US history.

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

And now our short episodic plea: We are a listener-funded podcast. We cannot do this work without you. We are currently in a patron drive right now. We had a goal of 200 monthly supporters by July. Doesn’t look like we’re gonna make that. We are at 72, which means this show is [00:02:00] unsustainable. Hopefully we can get to 100 patrons by July but that depends entirely on your support. 

We are here through the potential strike no matter what. And continuation after a settlement is certainly in the cards. Which means your support would go a long way. You can even sign up to our patreon for just one month to make a bulk donation. Really, we just need your help, so please, share the show, follow us on social media, but first and foremost head over to patreon.com/upsurgepod and become a supporter today. You can find the link in the description. 

Also a reminder: The next 21 people to sign up to our Patreon will get a free one-year In These Times subscription. 

Alright onto the show. 

This episode is somewhat of a two-parter. In the last two weeks a lot’s been going on in terms of the contract campaign, so we’re hitting on that first.

The big News:  UPS Teamsters have authorized a strike [00:03:00] in the case that no new contract is signed by August 1, and they’ll be setting up practice pickets across the country starting next week. 

Also, the Teamsters and UPS appeared to have come to terms on all non-economic proposals on the contract. That means they’ll be moving onto wage increases, pensions, overtime issues, and of course, the two-tier driver system. Among what’s already been decided: well, it looks like air conditioning and other heat protections are coming to the package care. And if you listened to our previous episodes, you’ll know it’s been a longtime coming.

In the second part of this episode, we have a really, really rich interview with Alex Han, a longtime labor organizer and the executive director of In These Times. We spoke about the political, social, and organizational legacies of the labor movement between 1997, that’s the last time UPSer struck, and 2023, our current moment when they may strike again in much larger numbers. 

But first, the strike authorization.

Last week, Teamsters in across 170 locals in the United States took to their union halls and outside their workplace [00:04:00] gates to vote on whether or not the national negotiating committee has permission to call a strike come August 1st and UPSers are still without a contract. 

This was the moment many rank and file were anxiously waiting for.

With the help of Teamsters Dom Belcastro and Brian Denning out of Local 162 in Portland, Oregon, I got to hear why rank and file around the country were voting yes.

Local 162 worker #1: so why, um, are you voting, for a strike authorization at ups? Okay. Why I would be voting is, um, honestly, we work really hard for ups and, and they, they, um, they kind of almost like slap the whip on us.

I’m supporting the strike boat because I’ve been renting my entire life. I’ve given this company, my blood, my sweat, my tears, and I haven’t really gotten much out of it. I’ve lived paid to pay paycheck to paycheck for the last four years and it fucking sucks.

Local 162 worker #2: You know, you got a family, you got mouths to feed, you want houses, you want cars, but how are you gonna afford that? You need to make more money.

Local 162 Man #4: I voted yes because white corporations get [00:05:00] away with too much and I feel like without us making like stands like this, we won’t get any progress. it’s important to make your voice heard and especially Unity makes stuff move.

Josh Palmer: My name is Josh Palmer. I’m a preloader on Swan Island and Portland, Oregon, I want to go on strike because we as workers create all the wealth and too much of it goes to the top and we’re gonna come and take what we’re owed.

Claire Schachtely: My name is Claire Shaley. I work preload at the Swan Island Hub in Portland, Oregon. I voted yes to authorize a strike against U P s because too many part-time workers across the country are living in poverty. While the company continues to make record profits off the backs of workers, it’s time to pay up.

Moe Nouhaili: My name is Mo Noha. I am a packaged car driver out of Las Vegas. I voted yes because we need true heat protection. We have thousands suffering from heat related injuries every year, and we’ve even [00:06:00] had multiple die and just one life lost is too many lives.

Joshua Alexander Crowder: Hey, what’s going on y’all? My name is Joshua. I’m a UPS teamster from Local 89 here in Louisville, and I’ve worked at Worldport since August of last year. 

 all of my reasons have to do with just kind of how UPS treats its, its workers

And so I voted yes, and I know so many other people voted yes because we don’t, we don’t think that this company just gets to keep profiting off of our broken bodies and off of our dead coworkers without having to answer to the teamsters.

So If you’re out there listening to this, uh, you see a teamster on strike, uh, in the next couple of months, stop by the picket line and show some solidarity. Thanks.

Teddy Ostrow: Last Friday, as was covered widely by mainstream media, we heard the results: 97% of the workforce voted yes. And in the middle of voting last week, we also heard that among the 55 agreements the Teamsters and UPS came to on the contract so far, was air conditioning, heat [00:07:00] shields, fans and ventilation in the package car. 

To dig into how this all went down, what it means, I invited Richard Hooker Jr back on the show. You’ll remember him from episode 7. He’s the secretary-treasurer of the Philadelphia Local 623.

Richard Hooker, welcome back to the Upsurge. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So I have some basic questions for you. Uh, you know, what was this strike authorization vote? What, what does that actually mean? To authorize a strike, right? Like you, it doesn’t just mean you guys are gonna go out and strike.

 and how, how did it go down? How, how did this, how did you guys make this happen? 

Richard Hooker Jr.: So we got 97% both authorization to go on strike if need be. It doesn’t mean that we gonna go on strike. It gives our lead negotiators, that extra hammer that, that ace in the hole, if you will.

If they need to pull it out on the company. If, if, you know, UPS says, you know what, man, we don’t care. we can make it [00:08:00] without you. Then they can hit ’em and say, Hey, okay, well if that’s the way you feel, then you need to realize that 97% of our members are looking to go on, on across the street here.

If you don’t come to the table with a, an agreement that we can agree to. So that’s what that means. So how it all took place. It was, it was kind of chaotic, you know? Um, we didn’t know, you know, I was actually in a meeting with the company and, I, I kept getting phone calls and text messages. Then finally I got a screenshot with this whole, uh, strike authorization vote was start this week from the u p s app.

And I’m like, what, how, when, how, where, you know, where’s the materials at? So, we had to scramble. Come up with a plan quickly and you know it was successful. Cuz again, that’s what we do. I mean, we are organizers at heart, 

So what we did was at our, our meeting on that following Sunday, we had [00:09:00] some people vote there. Then throughout the course of the week, we had gating almost 24 7 cuz we wanted to make sure that we got everybody, everybody we could, to send the company a message and to give our negotiators that extra leverage that they needed.

Teddy Ostrow: And you guys clearly sent a message with that 97% authorization vote. Um, so the other thing that happened that was important in the past few weeks is, there was a tentative agreement that was reached on a specific issue, heat protections for packaged car drivers, other drivers, What was agreed to, and, and can you speak to why this is such a big deal, but also that still among some drivers there does appear to be some cynicism about what was agreed to, just what happened.

Richard Hooker Jr.: So, I don’t know all the particulars too, but from what I’ve read, um, it, it, there’s, it seems to be some type of ambiguity there because it says that [00:10:00] on vehicles purchased after January of 2024. So I think that’s where the big confusion is at are, are we going to, is all the trucks going to get it?

Or just the one that’s gonna be purchased next year. And in the u p S world, we all know that u p s loves gray areas in the contract. They love where there is no clear cut language that says they have to do something. And you know, this is one of those things where people have died because of heat on the trucks.

And, and you know, the reason why you see that cynicism is because, they don’t believe it. Now. It’s a good start. It’s good to have that language there. Uh, I do agree with that, but how does it work? How does it work for the driver? What about the people in the warehouse? What about the people that move the cans from on or off the plane?

 they got questions too. They got concerns because you know nothing against. You know, the people on the package calls our members and brothers and sisters that deliver packages. but I think the people in the [00:11:00] warehouse they want answers on, are they going to get air conditioned because they passed out.

Some people have died in the warehouse as well. And so, this is one of the things where I think we need to be careful not to continue to put member against member. Because if I’m going to get it in my truck, then what about me in the warehouse? Cause it’s hot in there too. So, I’m hoping that the, the National Negotiating Committee can answer those questions and there is a call on Wednesday.

Um, so hopefully those questions will be answered and those concerns will be addressed, hopefully.

Teddy Ostrow: Right, right. Yeah. So the new packaged cars right, as you said, will get some of these air con air conditioning ventilation. Um, seems like old ones will get some fans. 

But yeah, I think, I think you’re right. It is. There are some questions here. Um, is there anything else about negotiations or the contract campaign people should know about and at this point I am curious, Richard, uh, what do you think’s gonna [00:12:00] happen? Some people are, are looking at the progress right now and they’re saying, oh wow.

Uh, there there could be an early settlement. do you think that’s the case? 

Richard Hooker Jr.: I’ve heard that. Yeah, man, 

we hear rumors all the time. Right. But we won’t know anything until we actually see the receipts. Like I, I, I’m, I’m under the mindset ever since, um, 20 thirteen’s contract to just wait until you get in front of you.

I don’t really, um, like to believe other people or, you know, I want to see it for myself, right? So I, I think that, you know, when we get this, the whole agreement in front of us, we actually read it. Then we’ll be able to decide is it gonna be an early agreement or are we gonna have to go on strike? But ultimately it’s the member’s choice, you know?

 we, well, I will say this about the members. We want to see more and hear more, um, about a lot of the issues that affect us day to day, day-to-day harassment, how they gonna take care of that. Nine fives, how they gonna take care of that, the [00:13:00] wages, um, the catch up rates, raises, you know, sick time.

Healthcare pension, those issues we haven’t heard anything about. um, at this late in the game, I think our members are just getting anxious. They wanna know more about what’s going on, and hopefully this call on Wednesday can again, address some of those concerns and answer some of those questions.

 Thanks for the update, Richard. Really appreciate you coming on the show. No problem. Thank you. And keep doing what you’re doing, brother. We appreciate it.

Teddy: I spoke with Richard earlier this week, so I attended the Wednesday contract update call that he mentioned. We didn’t get to talk about it of course, but what was announced was that the Teamsters have now come to terms with UPS on all the non-economic issues in the contract, and will be moving onto the big ticket economic items, such as wage increases across all classifications, but especially for part-timers, and of course, the abolition of tiers among drivers. 

In the call, Sean O’Brien claimed that the economic package they’ve proposed on Wednesday is the biggest in US labor history. We’ll have to wait and see what they proposed and how UPS responds.

But among the 55 changes to the contract agreed on so far are some of the most important demands that we’ve covered in this podcast. Inward-facing surveillance cameras, for example, appear to be limited but not fully removed from the package car.

And of course there’s the heat protections. To clarify what appears to agreed on right now: Like we mentioned, air conditioning would be installed in all new package cars starting in 2024. But all trucks would be retrofitted with two fans, and within 18 months, ventilation and heat shields in the cargo area, which really is where we’ve seen those ridiculous temperatures that have sickened thousands and even killed people over the years. We’re talking about 130 to 150 degrees. 

Members I spoke to were concerned that they’ll never see a new package car in their career. UPS just won’t replace them. But the TA specificies that 28,000 new cars would have to be brought in by the end of the contract. And the states that see the highest heat risk will get new cars first. 

Now, one thing I just wanted to emphasize before moving on is that air conditioning – ya know, the thing that workers at most other delivery companies have besides UPS – was inconceivable just a year ago. And the only reason that the Teamsters will now get is because rank and file Teamsters really fought hard for it. Particularly [00:20:00] those who started the Safety Not Surveillance campaign at Local 804 in New York, which we covered in epsiode 4 and in a free bonus episode back in March. While there is skepticism among some members, when I asked some of Teamster activists what they thought about it, they expressed that this is clear case of when workers fight, they win. 

Teddy Ostrow: Now I’m gonna let you in on a secret. You can learn a lot about what some workers are thinking by going on Facebook or other social media. And for the UPS teamsters this is certainly true. In episode 4 we talked about the Vote No campaign on 2018 contract, which UPSers unequivocally voted down. And we all know what happened: the Teamsters leaderhip at the time pushed it through anyway.

But that campaign, it largely grew out of a Facebook page that was started actually for the 2013 [00:21:00] contract, called Vote No on the UPS Contract. Over the years, the Facebook page grew to over 25,000 members. And it was actually the organizing that started online therethat prompted the shop floor organizing for the Vote No Vote in 2018.

Now, social media is a less than imperfect temperature check of the enormous UPS workforce. But you can learn a lot. Rumors and debates abound.

And recently, when I was scrolling through one of the various facebook pages for UPS teamsters, I saw a post that garnered a lot of divisiveness. It was quite long and it was written by Greg Kerwood, the local 25 package car driver who joined us on our last episode. The post was on the topic of a strike, and he shared an opinion that I don’t think we’ve heard yet on this show. It was quite impasioned, and I thought it would important [00:22:00] to present it. So I asked Greg to record himself reading it. 

Greg Kerwood: It is become almost cliche to say that nobody wants a strike as if it were somehow UNC coth to stand up for one’s humanity without a qualifier. But wanting a strike is truly not the question the. The question rather is, do we need a strike? And the answer is an unequivocal yes. We need a strike to unite our members at UPS and our teamsters union as a whole.

We need a strike to create a generation of militant unionists whose education will be the picket line and whose graduation will be the launch of a new labor movement. We need a strike to create the bonds that hold labor together, that unite workers. Those that can only be forged in the furnace of workplace action.

We need a strike to energize the entire labor movement to show [00:23:00] workers that they can stand up, that they can fight back, and that they can win. We need a strike to remind the corporations of the world just to generates the record profits they enjoy year after year. Ending this fight without striking at U P s, even with a good contract, would be the labor equivalent of a tie ballgame.

We as Teamsters should not be playing for a tie. We should be playing to win. Surely no one believes this company will be taught a lesson or change its behavior without us withholding our labor. If the company is acquiescing to many of our demands out of a fear of a job action and loss of billions, if they’re feeling the heat of a potential strike, then we must push further.

The time has come to finally address the issue, which underlies all others at U P s. Power. Are we going to continue to be owned by this company each day forced to labor until our Lord and master sees fit to let us go? [00:24:00] Or are we going to have control over when and for how long we sell our labor? I say the latter until we have a finite workday, both full-time and part-time.

We will continue to be at the mercy of this company and our jobs will continue to dominate our lives. This is not asking for the world. It is simply asking that our employer recognize our humanity. Recognize that we need rest and time to recover. Recognize that we have families and lives outside of work.

Recognize that personal time is not a gift, but a basic human right. Until we have this, we must strike. Make no mistake striking a multi-billion dollar corporation is not for the faint of heart. It requires strength, commitment, and a willingness to sacrifice in the short term for long-term gain. But I know of no workforce more suited to this task than the men and women [00:25:00] who give their blood sweat and toil to this company day after day, despite being consistently treated as replaceable cogs in a big brown profit making machine.

So the answer is simply this. If you want to change your workplace and your life, if you want to organize Amazon, if you want to empower workers everywhere to join a union and fight back against the abuses of their employer, If you want to swing the pendulum of power away from corporations and back towards the working class, then we must strike.

History is made by those who attempt the impossible, who fight the unwinnable, who believe the unbelievable, who ignore the voices of the naysayers, the pundits, the experts. This is our time to make history to right the wrongs of the last four decades and to return the rewards of labor to those who create them.

If you want your workplace, your life, your community, and your [00:26:00] country to be better tomorrow than they are today, we must strike.

Teddy Ostrow: That was Greg Kerwood. On to our interview with Alex Han. 

As I said at the top, Alex is a longtime organizer in the labor movement and progressive politics more broadly. He was the vice president of SEIU Healthcare Illinois and Indiana, where helped organize tens of thousands of home-based healthcare and childcare workers. He was a co-founder of the independent political organization United Working Families, and he served on the national political team for Bernie Sanders’ 2020 presidential campaign. 

I could continue talking up Alex’s bonafides and honestly I could’ve talked to Alex for hours for this episde. But I think even in this short interview he made clear that what makes this exciting labor moment possible can and should be traced much farther back than the pandemic, or [00:27:00] the 2018/2019 teachers strikes, which are usually the explanatory touchstones of 2023. I’m so glad we had him on the show to begin some of that threading, which younger people like me often overlook. 

At the center of the interview is the Chicago Teachers Strike, which I think I should explain a little. It was a strike by 25,000 teachers in 2012 that more than anything was really about stopping the city from destroying public schools. It was for the broader community. It was an important breaking point because it was an outgrowth of organizational militancy that was brewing years before, and the broader economic and social fallout of the global financial crisis. But it was catalytic for a militant current in the labor movement that would continue to respond to and channel broader trends in the world, while pushed by many of the same people organizations that were involved in 2012. 

So, just wanted to get that out of the way and I also just wanted to tease out a couple acronyms that are used in this interview. First, SEIU, where Alex worked is the humungous Service Employees Interntaional Union, which is one fo the few unions that actually grew in the 1990s and 2000s. Alex also mentioned the AFL-CIO, that’s the American Federation of Labor, Congress of Industrial Organizations, which is the largest federation of labor unions in the united states. It has traditionally been a very conservative institution, but in the 90s it did take a more progressive turn under the leadeship of Jon Sweeney that coincided with the 1997 strike at UPS. So that’s what Alex is talking about.

Alex Han, thanks for joining me on the [00:28:00] Upsurge. 

Alex Han: Oh, thanks for having me. Teddy. 

Teddy Ostrow: So I’m really excited to have you on because you’ve been a longtime labor organizer for the past 20 years. Uh, and I think something we’ve missed on this show so far is a tracing of the economic, social, and political themes, and also the organizational legacies between these two high points of teamster militancy that we have covered on the show.

That’s first 1997 when the Teamsters last struck u P s and 2023. Now, when they may strike the company again. So let’s start in 1997. 

how should we understand the context of the teamsters and labor more broadly at that historical moment?

Alex Han: Yeah, I, I think it’s really important. I. To understand the similarities and differences. I think it’s really important to understand the broader political and [00:29:00] economic context that existed, as well as inside the labor movement and inside the Teamsters. So 26 years ago, in 1997, was a couple years into the last kind of reform moment inside the Teamsters Union.

 led at the time by Ron Carey, who was the president, for the lead up. To that, you know, to that big strike in 97. That was a movement. Similarly to now, when Teamsters for a Democratic Union played a critical role, in changing, the, leadership in the teamsters. It was the first one member one vote election, inside the Teamsters Union.

 after, uh, kind of decades long, rain from, from forces that were allied with Jimmy Hoff at. Uh, senior, it was a time of real hope in the labor movement more broadly, although that was a hope that wasn’t necessarily driven, by rank and file workers and members.

Um, And so there are some [00:30:00] similarities to now.

 there are some real differences. we’ve got, you know, uh, a movement inside the teamsters that has elected, Sean O’Brien. with the support of T D U, we have more broadly in the labor movement. The first, one member, one vote election inside the United Auto Workers, which has brought, you know, to power a real rank and file driven leadership, led by Sean Fayne, the new president.

 One of the differences between 97 and the current moment is the atmosphere for organizing now in 97, union density was higher overall in the economy, than it is today. but we have things like the. The organizing at Amazon, um, that’s really excited. People. We have things like the Starbucks workers organizing, a whole lot of particularly service worker organizing, you know, around the country.

 that has really helped to build excitement inside and outside of the labor movement, and build attention. we have in 2023, you know, we’re several years [00:31:00] into the resurgence of the Democratic Socialists of America. which I think are still 70,000 members strong around the country in 97.

You could kind of imagine that as maybe the, the, uh, the nadir or the kind of weakest moment for the organized left in American politics. you just reelected Bill Clinton. in a really uninspiring campaign, you know, you had a situation in which the horizons for the American left were much, much smaller, than they are today.

 today we still sit in the wake of, you know, two campaigns for President from Bernie Sanders. You, you have a real dynamism, on the organized left that you didn’t have. in the mid to late nineties. 

So it was, you know, in short it was like a, somewhat stronger labor movement overall, frankly, you know, bigger numbers, bigger percentages. 

Labor unions represented a bigger percentage of workers in the economy. Um, you didn’t have the kind of dynamic organizing campaigns that are really [00:32:00] visible, that you’ve seen today.

So there are some parallels. there are some real differences.

 but in a lot of ways that strike was coming, at what people saw was a low point at that time in the labor movement. 

Teddy Ostrow: Yeah, and I might add that at least. another similarity is just the state of working America. I mean, the, the reason why that strike was so successful, one of the reasons was because of public support, right.

 Things have gotten pretty dark, by 1997 in corporate America for working people. And I think you could say in, in some ways it’s gotten worse, especially since 2020 at the sort of beginning of what people may view as a is a new moment to hopefully a new, day for labor. But maybe we can start, Threading those two moments together.

How, how did we get from 1997 to now? We can’t cover everything right now, but what do [00:33:00] you see as the key forces, the key movements moments that show their legacy in our labor movement today, that that helped shape the possibility for a strike of 350,000 teamsters potentially in August. 

Alex Han: I, I would want to start, you know, out of 1997, an enormous fight.

I think at that point the Teamster’s membership at U P S was something around 180,000, right? So significantly smaller than it is now. but still a, a really gigantic number of people to be on strike. The messaging of that strike was around a part-time America won’t work. And so I think that was something, you know, roughly two decades into de-industrialization.

you know, into, you know, a set of economic recoveries in the nineties, um, that were really best felt as recoveries on Wall Street. for a lot of Americans, you know, unemployment had gone down. a lot of that was a result of people having to work two and three [00:34:00] jobs, um, to make it, which was something that was, you know, 

 not brand new, especially for, you know, women workers who are heads of household, especially for immigrant workers, for black workers. but I do think in some ways it was something new for a broader set of workers. and for white men, for, for kind of like other, other people who hadn’t necessarily felt that kind of hit, in the past, uh, under the, post-war economic expansion.

And so the 97 strike really also, inspired, I think, you know, whether directly or indirectly the kind of like key critical organizing. Of the global justice movement that happened in the, in the several years and kind of came to a peak in 2000 and 2001, around.

 protests around the World Trade Organization, around the International Monetary Fund in World Bank. you know, there was a set of growing alliances, between environmentalists and labor unions. Things like the Bluegreen Alliance, that was the steel workers and environmental groups. I remember one of the [00:35:00] phrases around the World Trade Organization protests in 1999 was Teamsters and Turtles together.

 so it was really thinking. about some, some hope for a broader movement, that could really link together some of these fights. and I would say that, that, you know, that that Teamster’s UPS strike in 97 was a critical piece, a national fight, that had 90% support, a strike that really was seen.

 as something that cut to the heart of some of the challenges of that economic recovery. and so I think we’re seeing reflections of that in the issues that exist today. Like that is still an enormous issue, right? part-time workers and their kind of treatment. Um, you know, in addition to obviously all the concerns around, workplace safety, 

 an expectation of more and more work, for the same payer class. So I think that, you know, we, we kind of, the, the previous teamster strike really helped, juice a bigger movement that was forming around economic justice issues globally.[00:36:00] we had, um, the terrorist attacks of nine 11 that really, Created a line of demarcation between what happened before and what happened after.

 and so I think, you know, a lot of what we’re talking about, organizationally on the American left in the labor movement in the years after that was really around ways to make. You know, a set of kind of strategic interventions. the new leadership in the a Ffl c i o of the mid nineties, um, it was seen by a lot of people as this progressive struggle inside the a Ffl C I o in a lot of ways.

It was, um, but at the same time, You know, a leadership fight inside the, a Ffl Ccio doesn’t engage rank and file union members. It certainly doesn’t engage the hundreds of millions of other, uh, people in the country who are not members of a labor union. Um, so you saw things like the rise of S E I U, my old union, that I was, an officer of an S E I U local here in Chicago for over a decade.

Um, really bearing down on what. You know, what we thought of as the [00:37:00] most strategic organizing that we could do, in a political atmosphere that was not conducive to workers building power. Um, in the wake of the next economic crisis in 2008, I think we’ve seen a real. Rekindling of something different, that’s helped to grow into the moment today.

 I think we can see, you know, the results of that Occupy Wall Street. the movement particularly centered around teachers and teachers unions, really started with the 2012 Chicago teachers strike. Um, but rolling through statewide strikes in places like Arizona, uh, West Virginia, Oklahoma. Um, in the last several years, I think all of those things helped to feed and were fed by, bigger political, campaigns like Bernie Sanders, two campaigns for president.

 and I think obviously right now, you know, we’re functioning in a place where, what’s happened internally inside the Teamsters Union is certainly the biggest impetus for this, right? The, the last contract [00:38:00] bargaining that it, that was not just that member saw it as a sellout, like it was, you know, the, the forcing of a contract, onto a membership that the majority of whom had not voted to approve that contract.

 and so I think we see an intersection of the forces inside the union, being able to create, a majority constituency inside the union, for a bigger fight. while across the kind of economy and in a bigger narrative, you also have an openness for people to see workers in motion, as being something that, gets broad public support.

Teddy Ostrow: That was a great summary. I wonder if we could dig into some of the specific, instances for a sec.we had talked, before you had mentioned, massive, protests, for immigration, reform. right in 2006. Yes. Uh, that’s something people around my age probably don’t remember it at all.

Um, but you, you [00:39:00] explained right that this funneled right into, something. That you may not, consider as connected, but the Chicago teacher strike, uh, which maybe is worth explaining a little bit. And then that funneling right into the Bernie campaign, which is generally considered right, something to do with occupy Wall Street, the energy coming from there.

This was something that I didn’t, quite understand and, and understand as, uh, you know, these organizational legacies, but also, legacies emanating from. movements that expanded beyond any one organization. 

Alex Han: Yeah, I, I think that there are, there are a set of different links and I’m glad you brought that, um, back up, Teddy.

So I, you know, one of the. Big, I wouldn’t say forgotten because, you know, the movement for immigrant rights, kind of the movement, of immigrants, largely immigrant workers is something that has taken on different shapes and forms, um, you know, over the decades and, going back [00:40:00] much before 2006. but that was really sparked by some attempts on the right, with the partnership of.

You know, Democrats like Ram Emanuel, corporate Democrats, to create an immigration reform that was going to be extremely punitive to workers, and very rewarding, to bosses. And the 2006 kind of uprising, day without an immigrant, the revival of mayday. In a lot of ways, like in Chicago, on May 1st, 2006, there were upwards of a million people in the street, um, marching, um, for humane immigration reform.

That was the closest that we’ve come in modern memory to something that could be considered a general strike. If a million people don’t go to work, you know, in a metro area of 10 million people, that is a gigantic number and it has huge kind of knock on effects. it was also a really amazing kind of show of power.

 and power in different ways, the power of kind of workers to make those decisions. the power of media, and particularly at that moment, Spanish language [00:41:00] media, to help move, people into action.  That fight in Chicago really did, lead to a set of other developments over the next couple of years.

The development, you know, of a really strong militant movement, particularly around young, undocumented people, to push for immigration reform that went further than any proposals that had been put forward, to that point in Congress. Um, it led into. Uh, in 2008 in Chicago, right in the wake of, of that kind of financial crisis and right after Barack Obama’s election, the occupation of a window and door factory called Republic windows by its workers, largely immigrants.

 Who were, under threat of their jobs being shipped away, kind of overnight. workers occupied that plant for eight days. won all of their demands of getting their prior pay and ended up over the next year or two, actually taking ownership of the equipment of their plant and creating a cooperative window and door factory on the [00:42:00] southwest side of Chicago.

That was a struggle that I think really inspired a lot of what in Chicago, energy that ended up being crystallized during the Occupy Wall Street movement. In the fall of 2011, there were members of a community organization on the south side called South Side together organizing for power.

 that came. To the occupation of Republic, windows and doors. A lot of the way that Allies, uh, interacted with it was by bringing food and bringing supplies to that plant occupation. Um, those leaders in Southside together, organizing for Power in 2011. embarked on an occupation of a set of mental health clinics in the city of Chicago that were under threat of closure.

 that was again, really amplified by the Occupy Wall Street movement. and was all a part of a bigger labor, community movement in Chicago, um, that was really linking together. Uh, teachers, uh, other public sector workers and some of these [00:43:00] kind of neighborhood based and constituency based fights for justice.

 that ended up culminating in that moment, in, strike of 25,000 teachers in the fall of 2012, the first time that teachers in Chicago had struck in over 25 years and probably the largest scale, strike. That we’ve seen, you know, of teachers in several decades, many teachers around the country don’t have the right to strike.

 and so that Chicago teacher strike, I think in turn, you know, fed off of that occupy Wall Street movement off of those movements against economic inequality, but also help to create a broader current inside the labor movement that we are still feeling the impact of today. 

Teddy Ostrow: Yeah, I think, right, we can see that expectations were raised for a lot of people and that.

Moment really funneled into, the Bernie Sanders campaign, which seemed to [00:44:00] electrify a lot of young people. funneled them directly into Democratic Socialists of America, which is playing a role today in, in, in several of the high profile fights, but also, maybe in the subterranean, uh, struggles we have yet to really see come, public right.

 And I just wanna bring us up to 20 18, 20 19, because I feel like a lot of people, like to trace the energy that we’ve seen in the past three years to Covid 19. the introduction of this pandemic, which clearly has played a role, but. A couple years before that, right? We saw something come out of Bernie’s campaign, something come out of 2012 in Chicago, in this explosion of, teacher strikes.

Right. can you explain how that played a role, where that came from, and how that’s played a role to what we’re seeing today? 

Alex Han: Well, the, the 2012 Chicago teachers strike, really was the [00:45:00] first event in what’s now an over a decade long movement. really in a lot of ways to put. Kinda K-12 education workers at the forefront of a new militant labor movement.

 now that does, that comes with, you know, not just a militant strike, but that strike was a result of the election of a rank and file caucus two years prior. the caucus rank and file educators. a group of of teachers union members who really had deep relationship with other social movements and other, other actors, um, from immigrant rights to what became the movement for Black Lives, to many others.

Um, that strike. Helped to inspire movements around the country. And there’s actually a direct line, to one of, you know what I think, Eric Black’s book is called Red State Revolt, about these statewide teacher strikes in 2018 and 2019. Uh, you know, one of the leaders of that in Arizona, a teacher named Rebecca Gelli, had moved from Chicago after her really foundational experience in 2012.

Um, [00:46:00] looked around at the, at the union that she was a part of in Arizona and said, Why don’t we fight the way that we fought in Chicago? Why don’t we talk about, not just our own issues, but why don’t we talk about the broader community issues and put all these things in context together? And why don’t we, why can’t we take like a sharper action?

 It’s really interesting. You know, if you, if you dig into kind of some of the organizers and the leaders of, of the statewide strike in West Virginia, the statewide strike in Oklahoma and Arizona, of actions that took place in Indiana and Kentucky and a, and a host of other states. the crossover with.

 teachers who were really vocal leaders in the Bernie campaign in 2016 are very distinct. the crossover between teachers who would be very involved, in broader, you know, labor for Bernie efforts in 2020, um, are very clear. Um, but you can see, you know, you can see a line that you can trace through specific people like Rebecca and others, [00:47:00] through all of those fights into really the creation.

 of a current inside the teacher’s union movement, that I think is still to be seen kind of the, the, the limits of that. you’ve had teachers go on strike most recently in Oakland, California. You’ve had multiple strikes in Los Angeles, Minneapolis, Minnesota, um, St. Paul, Minnesota.

 you’ve had rank and file caucuses, win victories and teachers unions from Boston to Baltimore. You know, to up and down the west coast. And I think that there is a relationship between all of these and the current moment that we’re in. you saw a lot of those unions take action early in the pandemic, to protect students, to protect workers, to protect communities, you know, fighting for.

Uh, safe return to school, early in the pandemic, you know, fighting against kind of politicians, really trying to force people in back into work and work back into school for political reasons. and so I [00:48:00] think, you know, there’s obviously a lot to be said about the impact of the pandemic. but these things were all in motion long before, the pandemic, reared up.

Teddy Ostrow: we’ve seen the impact of, Amazon and Its relationship and stranglehold to some degree on the logistics and delivery chain, in the United States and globally. that was something that was supercharged by the pandemic, but the outlines of that impact were very clear. beforehand.

Alex Han: it was also clear that, you know, these things were going to be on a collision course. and so obviously, You know, a militant teamsters union that was ready to fight and ready to communicate their willingness to fight, was really critically needed, for workers much more broadly, than those who were represented by the teamsters at U P s.

Teddy Ostrow: Yeah. And I think we could, you know, each of these unions, that we had previously discussed, the uaw, the teamsters, which, you know, are undergoing reforms right now, or at least greater militancy, the [00:49:00] legitimacy lent to a reformers in those unions. certainly right, came from the expectations raised.

Before the pandemic and after the pandemic, when we reach a breaking point, among, you know, different people including teachers, um, everyone from teachers to I think, uh, right logistics workers who were put on the front lines of, something that could lead to death, but. I wanna, I wanna move back actually in time, well, not quite exactly, but something you were involved in, right?

In 2012, the Chicago Teachers strike, you were at s e I U at the time, but something I think is really important that we, we haven’t touched on in this show is what’s called bargaining for the Common Good. And this is both a specific network you were involved in, in Chicago or are involved in, but it’s also a greater framework for labor unions to use their leverage beyond, the [00:50:00] workplace specifically.

This isn’t something we’ve seen much of yet in the teamsters Union. We are starting to see it. Right. Uh, but in closing, can you explain what, what bargaining for the common good is? What, what we should learn from that strategy? And why it is so integral to not only a successful labor movement, but also to success, also to successful social justice movements, more broadly.

Alex Han: Yeah, I, I think the, the simple answer to what bargaining for the common good is, is it’s a framework in which workers use their leverage, to win victories that go much more broad than the bargaining unit. bargaining for the common good in the way that I think of it is, Really bringing things back, um, to some of the core of what the labor movement was and what it represented at the times of its greatest expansion and the times of its greatest [00:51:00] impact.

 I think about the labor movement, you know, of the Civil Rights movement and the labor movement certainly wasn’t unified in its approach to the Civil Rights Movement. but unions like the uaw. were critical elements of a coalition, to help build, you know, a, a, a civil rights movement in this country.

 I think of back to the, you know, through the history of the teamsters to the 1934 general strike in Minneapolis, Minnesota, that was launched by, Teamster truck drivers, local delivery drivers, where their purpose was not can we win the best deal for our members. their purpose was really in thinking about their leverage, uh, as workers, as workers who are delivering goods, in being able to create a much bigger, um, battle.

So in a lot of ways, Labor exists, in a legalistic framework, that was not designed in order to build worker power. It was designed at best in a [00:52:00] compromise, to be able to create, uh, predictable environment for capital to exist in and grow.

 When we think about bargaining for the common good, we’re also thinking about breaking out of some of those legalistic frameworks that have been forced on workers that have been forced on unions. but that have existed for so long that, you know, some people, um, think of it as, you know, it’s how the sun rises and the sunsets.

That’s just how things are. that’s not how things are. That’s not how things have been at the moments when workers have created the biggest change. You know, both in their own conditions and much more broadly for the community. You know, I do think of the 97 strike as a moment. The Teamsters were bargaining for the common good.

There’s no other way around it to say part-time America, you know, isn’t going to work. That was something that reverberated much more broadly, just like I think some of the ways that they’re messaging and communicating the issues that they face, those are issues that directly and indirectly impact millions and millions of other [00:53:00] workers.

 When we have a big enough chunk of workers in the right place who are able to improve their own living standards, the fate of every worker in logistics, you know, is tied.

 To what happens at ups. 

 so I don’t like to think of bargaining for the common good as something that is separate from what workers want, what workers need, and the tactics that actually are going to help them win. because it is true that creating that kind of public opinion where 90% of the public support to, you know, pushing in that way, is a part of what is going to help workers win in a fight like this right now.

Teddy Ostrow: Alex Han, thanks for joining me on the Upsurge. All right, thanks, Teddy.

You just listened to episode 9 of The Upsurge. 

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out [00:54:00] at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

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Amazon: The company we hate to love, for its convenient next-day deliveries, and we love to hate, for its egregious treatment of the workers that execute that miracle.

It really needs no introduction. Amazon is a corporate giant with 1.5 million employees, most of which are in the Teamsters’ bread and butter industry: logistics, meaning warehouse workers and delivery drivers. Only, these workers are almost entirely non-union. But the problem with Amazon is not just its own non-union pay and working conditions. Left unchecked, Amazon may just start a race to the bottom for the working class as a whole.

The Teamsters, alongside other unions and worker collectives, are trying to change that. And in April earlier this year, 84 of Amazon’s delivery drivers and dispatchers in Palmdale, California joined Teamsters Local 396 and won a first contract. This is a huge deal, but it’s not an uncomplicated victory.

In this episode, you’ll hear from one of those Amazon drivers, Arturo Solezano, about their working conditions, and why he and his now-union siblings joined the Teamsters. We also spoke with Alex Press, staff writer at Jacobin magazine, who unpacked why Amazon is a threat that needs to be taken seriously by the Teamsters and the rest of organized labor. 

Finally, you’ll hear an update on UPS contract negotiations from Greg Kerwood, a package car delivery driver from Teamsters Local 25 in Boston.

Additional links/info below…

• Support the show at Patreon.com/upsurgepod.
• Follow us on Twitter @upsurgepod, Facebook, The Upsurge, and YouTube @upsurgepod.
• Check out Alex Press’s article on the UPS contract campaign in Jacobin magazine, and Teddy’s video collaboration with More Perfect Union on why UPSers may strike this August.

Hosted by Teddy Ostrow
Edited by Teddy Ostrow
Produced by NYGP & Ruby Walsh, in partnership with In These Times & The Real News
Music by Casey Gallagher
Cover art by Devlin Claro Resetar

Transcript

The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.

Alex Press: what does organizing Amazon do for u p s workers? Well, if they don’t organize Amazon warehouse workers and delivery drivers soon, they may just not exist as a union.

Teddy: Amazon: The company we hate to love, for its convenient next-day deliveries, and we love to hate, for its egregious treatment of the workers that execute that miracle. 

Arturo: On the side, I have to donate my plasma to make the extra money for anything that. I can’t cover with my, Hey, it’s all my days off.

I have to go do something to make sure I have that money for us to make sure we can’t get by. 

Teddy: See the problem with Amazon is not just its own non-union pay and working conditions. But that left unchecked, it may just start a race to the bottom for the working class as a whole.

(music transition) 

Hello my name is Teddy Ostrow. Welcome to the Upsurge, a podcast about UPS, the Teamsters, and the future of the American labor movement.

This podcast unpacks the unprecedented labor fight this year at UPS. In July, the contract of over 340,000 UPS workers will expire and if those workers strike, which is a real possibility, it will be the largest strike against a single company in US history.

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

And now our short episodic plea: We are a listener-funded podcast. We cannot do this work without you. We are currently in a patron drive right now. We’d like to reach 200 monthly supporters of our Patreon by July. We are pretty far off from that. We are at 67, which makes this show completely unsustainable. 

Now you may be thinking hey, the strike may happen in August, it’s already June, how much can I really help them. Well, a lot actually. For two reasons: First, We’ve done a lot of work already with very few patrons, so your support will help make up for that time. 

And second, we may not be going anywhere after the Teamsters contract fight is done. Can’t share many details, but The Upsurge may continue and we’ll need your help to do that. So please, head over to patreon.com/upsurgepod and become a supporter today. You can find the link in the description. 

Also a reminder: The next 24 people to become patrons, will get a free one-year subscription to In These Times magazine. 

Alright onto the show. 

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I’m gonna make this intro pretty quick because we have a lot of ground to cover. In this episode we’re unpacking the existential threat – to UPSers, to the Teamsters, to unions in general, and the working class as a whole: Amazon. 

It really needs no introduction. Amazon is a corporate giant with 1.5 million employees, on pace to become the largest private sector employer in the country. And the majority of that workforce is in the logistics industry. Warehouse workers, delivery drivers. And surprise, surprise, they’re mostly unorganized. 

But Teamsters, alongside other unions and worker collectives, are trying to change that. Indeed, the Teamsters has its own Amazon Organizing Division, with organizers around the country, which it launched a few years ago.

And in April earlier this year, 84 of Amazon’s delivery drivers and dispatchers in Palmdale, California joined Teamsters Local 396 and won a first contract. Now, this is a huge deal, but it’s not an uncomplicated victory. 

For this episode, we’ll get into why and we spoke to one of those drivers, Arturo Solezano, about the working conditions at Amazon and why he and his now-union-siblings joined the Teamsters.

But before you hear from Arturo, we’re gonna zoom out with Alex Press, staff writer at Jacobin magazine, who was one of the key reporters covering Amazon workers’ conditions and organizing over the past three years. She’s gonna help us understand why Amazon is a threat that needs to be taken seriously by the Teamsters and the rest of organized labor. And she also recently wrote an excellent article about the UPS contract campaign that you should definitely read and I’ll put in the description. 

Now, before we even get to Alex, it’s been a little while since we discussed the state of the contract campaign and negotiations between UPS and the Teamsters. I spoke to Local 25 UPS rank and file, Greg Kerwood, in Boston this past weekend about what’s been happening since negotiations at the national level started. 

But we did speak before Monday, June 5, when important two things happened: First, there was some progress made on some specific issues at the bargaining table, like making supervisors being made identifiable in facilities and lodging reimbursement for semi-truck drivers. 

But the big news is of course that the international union called for an in-person strike authorization vote. 

That means that UPSers at the gates of their hubs, at their union halls. will be voting on whether or not the union has the permission to call a strike in the event there is no new contract by August 1. 

The results will be known Friday, June 16. The IBT is recommending UPSers vote yes. 

Now, how this vote goes – what percentage of UPSers vote yes and what percentage of the workforce participates at all – it’s an important test of how successful the contract campaign has been over the past 10 months. 

How successfully locals and rank and file around the country have been organizing their ranks, educating Teamsters on the stakes of this contract, and why the threat of a strike is the greatest leverage any union has in bargaining. 

Now for an update with Greg Kerwood.

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Teddy Ostrow: Greg Curwood, thanks for joining me on the upsurge. 

Greg Kerwood: Thanks for having me today. It’s a pleasure to be here. 

Teddy Ostrow: So I just wanna make clear to everyone, Greg is not speaking on behalf of the Teamsters [00:07:00] National Negotiating Committee. He’s just an informed rank and file, member of the International Steering Committee of the Teamsters for Democratic Union, also local 25 in Boston.

He’s a union activist and he does a lot of work organizing and educating his union siblings. So that’s why he’s gonna give us an update. and since we last reported on this podcast, the supplemental or the regional agreements, they weren’t going too well. They’ve since almost been completed entirely.

There’s two left. and of course all of them will have to be voted on by the membership. But Greg, can you bring us up to date? We’re, we’re speaking on the weekend right before negotiations. We’ll start up again. there was a week break, but perhaps you can summarize just how things have been going as far as we know.

Since negotiations started at the national level? 

Greg Kerwood: Well, so far, it seems to be, a case of more of the same from the company. I know our committee put forth the elimination of the 2024 [00:08:00] position. I’m not sure how that worked out or what the company’s response was. they’ve also spent a week discussing, technology issues.

again, I don’t really know for certain how the company responded or whether any of that was resolved. I know there is an agreement that came out this week, to limit some of the, package flow into the SurePost system. not too many specifics, but in general it seems to be very slow going.

there seems to be a lot of posturing on the part of the company. not a whole lot of seriousness, still. and so the clock is continuing to tick down. we’re down under 60 days at this point. and so it’s really just, it seems to be more the same. I don’t think the company has really taken this seriously since the beginning of negotiations, and it appears as though they’re continuing down that path.

Teddy Ostrow: So we’re talking about some progress made perhaps on invasive [00:09:00] technology. on everyone’s mind. Of course. Are those inward facing cameras? Sure. Post. Just so everyone knows, progress seems to be made. On basically ups giving teamster work away to the post office. and the, the big demands, 22 fours, PVDs wages, that, those sorts of things, we’re gonna have to wait and see.

But given what’s happened so far, Greg, which doesn’t seem like very much, what’s your perspective on the possibility of a strike? we’re speaking eight weeks out from contract expiration. Is there a chance, that you believe they’ll get to everything or. Are you guys barreling towards, hitting the picket line?

Greg Kerwood: I would say that given the current pace of negotiations, a strike almost seems inevitable. now obviously it’s in the company’s hands if they want to change that approach and come to the table and address issues in a more reasonable and more timely fashion. I haven’t seen any indication of them doing that.

perhaps that [00:10:00] will change and perhaps, you know, the laundry list of major issues that we have, can be addressed, I believe. I think our proposals, to my knowledge, are all there and ready and waiting.

It’s just a question of whether the company wants to take them seriously and, and bargain in good faith. So it is still possible that that could be done, but if things continue on the current pace and with the current attitude of the company, I, I think it very likely that we be on strike. come August 1st.

Teddy Ostrow: Greg Curwood, thanks for giving us that update and offering your perspective. My 

Greg Kerwood: pleasure. Thank you.

Teddy Ostrow: Alex Press, thanks for joining me on the 

Alex Press: Upsurge. Thanks so much for having me. Happy to be here. 

Teddy Ostrow: So I, I wanna open with the threat of Amazon. Why should Teamsters UPSers, but really the broader working class, be concerned about this one company? 

Alex Press: Yeah, so I mean to say Amazon is just one [00:11:00] company is sort of downplays how big of a scale we’re talking about when we talk about Amazon as well as the different kind of core functions.

Amazon has different parts of its business, so I feel like a lot of people maybe who are listening to this show would know that obviously Amazon is a gigantic employer. Of warehouse workers as well as delivery drivers, though, you know, important caveat that we’ll get into, which is, those delivery drivers are not direct employees of Amazon, but, so this is a gigantic workforce, second biggest private employer in the United States.

 but it’s also, you know, the sort of, the joke I make is Amazon kind of functions as a pacesetter of sorts, a vanguard of capital, if you will.you know what Amazon can get away with. Other companies will then follow in that direction. 

 That often, quite literally, is true in that Amazon executives will go on to be hired as consultants, especially in human resources for other corporations, who will pay them gobs of money basically to implement [00:12:00] and replicate Amazon’s model. Amazon’s model being squeezing workers a very high pace of work.

 incredible use of surveillance technologies on the workforce. Um, and this doesn’t just mean warehouse workers or say delivery drivers like u p s workers, but actually, you know, white collar workers as well. Amazon is sort of exporting these technologies and this sort of way of squeezing workers.

 in a way that really applies to all kinds of people, including those who think I have nothing in common with an Amazon warehouse worker. You do. Um, you know, specifically about u p s I think it’s a pretty obvious argument here. You know, u p s has already been existing as this sort of island of unionization within the broader, logistics industry.

 you know, they. Have fought very hard to have decent wages and benefits and, you know, a, a sustainable schedule for delivery, for example. Um, Amazon exists to undercut that, right? That’s, if it’s not its aim, it’s its function. so Amazon famously [00:13:00] of course, will get, uh, something to your door within a few hours if you pay enough money for it.

 and that means that, you know, they have this entire gigantic network. Of both warehouse workers and delivery drivers who are being, you know, worked at all hours, who work seven days a week, who have a very high pace, of delivery. The famous stories about how no one who’s delivering for Amazon has time to pee at all.

 you know, because there’s nowhere to go, right? You need to get your next delivery out immediately. I mean, I think I often say this to people where I’m like, Have you ever really had a conversation with an Amazon delivery person who is delivering packages to your apartment building? Um, no. They don’t have time for that.

They, you know, even if you tried to stop them, you would actually be annoying them because they have a schedule to stick to. and so that undermines the standards. That u p s workers have fought for a very long time, um, to get, and I think, you know, especially the new leadership of the Teamsters, Sean O’Brien recognizes that existential threat that you cannot exist forever.

 with this [00:14:00] growing behemoth, constantly undercutting your standards, you know, u p s. We’ll use Amazon as kind of a, a wedge and say, well, we can’t agree to this in the contract cuz you know, we’re gonna go out of business if we keep having these heavy labor costs. And while that’s nonsense, you know, up s has a enormous amount of profits.

 it is a real argument, that the teamsters need to take seriously. And the best answer to it would be organizing Amazon workers themselves. 

Teddy Ostrow: You sort of, uh, began with this, but I, I do wanna take a step back. What even is Amazon? is it a logistics company, retail tech? Can you give us a sense of the huge landscape that is this, uh, one or multiple companies?

Alex Press: Yeah. So it’s a surprisingly complicated answer. so it’s all of those things. It is a logistics company. It is an e-commerce. Retail company. It’s one of the, you know, largest e-commerce companies, in existence. it’s [00:15:00] also importantly the web infrastructure that other companies rely upon. So, you know, if you’re on a Zoom call, you’re using Amazon Web services or aws, which is the company’s most profitable arm.

Right. if you’re using Uber, you’re using Amazon’s computational power and space. they’re also smaller things like selling se surveillance technology to law enforcement. Amazon is a major cultural producer. It is a member of the producer organization that currently is being struck. by the Writer’s Guild of America.

You know, they make television and films, and this is something Jeff Bezos really likes, you know, the cultural arm, the cache and glamor. it’s also importantly one of the biggest platforms for third party vendors, right? So other companies, small businesses using Amazon’s websites, as well as Amazon’s warehouses and delivery drivers to get their goods to customers doors.

So there are all these different arms going on. so while in the labor world, we speak the most [00:16:00] about the warehouse workers and you know, maybe to a lesser extent the delivery drivers, and rightly so, we’re talking about hundreds of thousands of workers. It is also all of these other things and they’re integrated together, right?

You. You need the computational power of a w s for the warehouses to function surveillance technology is tested in the warehouses and then exported not only to other companies, but to other countries as well. Um, and so Amazon, you know, I think in trying to think about this, you know, I think one, there are a couple metaphors we could use.

One is, you know, the, the company in the company town. Right. A sort of private government, that functions kind of as an overlord of sorts or a control mechanism. or, I think one kind of metaphor I use a lot is kind of a toll collector, right? Amazon wants to be a. The thing you have to go through to get to everything else, whether it’s goods, whether it’s the internet and infrastructure, all of these things.

Amazon kind of [00:17:00] has been very good at warming its way into the middle of, so that it gets a cut as a middleman from everything. and so I think there are all those different ways to. To think about it. Um, but finally I would just say, you know, thinking of it as a utility because it’s so kind of inescapable for all of the reasons I just mentioned, also can be kind of productive in starting to think about what regulation of Amazon would look like.

Teddy Ostrow: That’s a really interesting point to think of it as a utility. So, so this logistics side of Amazon that’s integrated into this sort of expanding hole, uh, you did really great work covering the organizing at Amazon over the past few years.

 could you give us a sense of how. Union organizing or organizing otherwise at the company has been going, you know, what, what are people fighting for or fighting against and what are the different efforts we’ve seen, the obstacles, um, and the future of Amazon.

Alex Press: Yeah. So I often start to answer this question by sort of giving some perspective [00:18:00] here in the form of an anecdote, which is, I was at the Labor Notes Conference, a biannual gathering of labor activists, rank and file workers and so on. I was there I think five years ago, and there was a sort of little secret side conversation going on, about salting Amazon.

Meaning, you know, purposely getting jobs at Amazon warehouses to then organize those warehouses. And this was a pretty controversial conversation. A lot of people were very negative on it. Um, they thought this was, you know, a doom strategy, that this was actually in fact sort of dangerous and that these efforts would fail.

 and aren’t there so many other warehouses with kind of decrepit unions? you know, for example, u p s warehouses, that might have kind of less active locals that would be much better uses of kind of young radicals time. if they really felt the need to kind of intentionally get a job, with the purpose of organizing.

 and it seemed very obvious to me at the time that. That all was true, [00:19:00] that none of these people were incorrect about the problems with this idea, but also these young people in particular were gonna do it anyway, right? Like this was exciting. This is on, you know, on pace to be the largest private employer in the United States.

 and so these efforts were going to start and we sort of saw them start to, you know, the outcome of those early efforts is, has been finally going public over the past couple of years. So you know, everyone’s heard about Bessemer, which, you know, was the first, Amazon warehouse in the United States to hold an N L R B election.

That was in 2021. It failed. there were, there are endless back and forths about Amazon violating labor law during that election. But you know, as it stands, they did not vote to unionize, um, that facility. You know, it the sort of, I think it’s an interesting example in that, you know, even failed efforts leave a trace on work, the working class in that, you know, if you speak to Chris Smalls, the, the founder of [00:20:00] the Amazon Labor Union out in Staten Island, he’ll tell you that it was Bessemer and watching that failure that led him to.

Decide to organize his own facility. and you know, and it’s why he decided to go with an independent union. He felt there were certain failures that, you know, came from the existing union trying to do it, and that actually it would only be an independent union that could win. for reasons that I think are arguable.

But certainly he was proven correct at JFK eight. so that was the first. And only Amazon warehouse to win an an L or B election. I think that was what, April of last year? April 1st. Cuz I remember it being a very funny. April Fool’s joke that they had actually won.

 and, and from there, there are, you know, efforts at, at different levels of, or different stages, in the works, right? So the a l U has tried, um, to, to hold other N L R B elections at other Amazon facilities. They’ve yet to win any of those. there are other efforts underway. So there’s a warehouse in North [00:21:00] Carolina, that’s being organized by a group that calls itself cause, whichstands for a way.

I wrote this down. I. Carolina Amazonians United for Solidarity and Empowerment. so their facility is in Garner, North Carolina, just out just outside of Raleigh, which is not where one would expect an Amazon effort to succeed. Um, you know, North Carolina has one of the lowest unionization rates.

In the country. but when you talk to the workers there, as I have, you know, they’ll tell you that. It sort of just happens organically, right?

Racism is a huge issue in this warehouse, which you’ll hear from Amazon workers at just about every warehouse. you know, it’ll often be a majority, non-white. Worker, population, and then management will be almost entirely white. at that’s the case at this facility. And that’s sort of organically led to certain kind of unrest in the warehouse that then led to this organizing effort that’s still underway.

 they have not filed for an N L R B election. And then there are other efforts, you know, in kind of earlier [00:22:00] stages.

 I think also just in closing it’s worth mentioning this warehouse in Minnesota. That has been kind of a, for a long time, the site of organizing by Somali workers in particular. and yeah, so that’s just a short list. I mean, it’s very funny that at this point my head is full of all of these incredibly indecipherable to anyone else.

 Names of these warehouses. R D one, JFK eight. This is what Amazon calls its facilities, and now it’s, thank God the laundry list is getting really long. It used to just be JFK eight that I would talk about. but, so that’s what’s going on. as far as the warehouse, organizing. 

Teddy Ostrow: Yeah. Thanks for going through so many of those, efforts. I mean, you know, there’s also Amazonians United, the international efforts to make Amazon Pay campaign. 

Alex Press: yeah. And I, I did wanna say, Amazonians United has been this interesting, you know, effort that has, That preceded Bessemer, and continues to exist. And that’s a sort of minority unionism shop floor unionism, you know, where they don’t have the majority of the [00:23:00] workers, you know, involved.

And they’re not trying to build towards an NLRB election. They’re just functioning as a union on the shop floor. And they have actually notched some real victories around working conditions. That I think is, anybody who’s interested in this topic really should also, look into that because, you know, when it comes to Amazon, I often kind of explain to people.

There’s just a throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks. You know, no unions up until these recent years have been able to breach the impenetrable fortress of Amazon. And so there are all different approaches going on, and while there’s real disagreements and you know, kind of, differences between these efforts, there is a sense in a larger kind of, meta view here.

That everyone is on the same page, that you just have to be willing to try some creativity, um, and that everyone kind of needs each other if anyone is gonna win at Amazon. 

Teddy Ostrow: I think that’s a great perspective to bring. And now let’s, let’s dig into one of the efforts right now that is pretty unique, and exciting, [00:24:00] especially for teamsters.

So 84 Amazon drivers and dispatchers, just recently unionized with Teamsters, local 3 96, that’s out in Palmdale, California. And, uh, that of course was super welcome, really, really exciting for labor folks. but it, it’s not. An uncomplicated victory. this is because of something you hinted at the structure of Amazon’s last Mile Delivery Services, which poses barriers to unionization, certainly getting a contract.

Can you unpack, why this is such a big deal, but also why it’s more complex than one would hope such that this battle, of the teamsters in Amazon really is just getting started. 

Alex Press: Yeah, so the most basic thing to mention is what I said at the top, which is these delivery drivers are legally, technically, not Amazon employees, which is absurd because as probably anyone listening to this show knows they drive in vehicles that are branded with [00:25:00] Amazon branding.

They often wear Amazon branded. Uniforms. but Amazon very cannelly set up this delivery service partner program, to give themselves distance from kind of the legal responsibilities of being an employer. so these workers have to petition their bosses, for redress on all kinds of things, and their bosses are usually these.

Small business owners who just started this company specifically to service Amazon, There are around 3000 of these companies nationwide, these delivery service partners or DSPs. and there are nearly, I think almost 300,000 drivers now who are driving for them at at least part and full-time.

so that means under US labor law right now until, and unless Amazon is declared a joint employer. So also having the legal responsibility to bargain with these workers. Right now, they have to petition, you know, just their small business, their D S P, which is what happened at that company, battle tested [00:26:00] strategies, in Palmdale.

And, you know, the interesting thing that I think people should know about this is that, you know, when the news came out that the, you know, not only had they. Organized a union, but the owner of b t s had given them voluntary recognition, you know, which is a sort of, while I think every boss should voluntarily recognize workers.

It’s pretty unusual these days in the United States. And it’s sort of displayed something that has since been kind of panned out in the reporting, which is that the, the owners of these DSPs often have just as many problems with Amazon as their workers. Um, you know, there have been cases of these. These companies, their owners, you know, shutting down their companies in protest against Amazon’s expectations for them.

You know, they work these drivers through the bone and it, you know, often they’re not lying when they say Amazon makes us do this. and so they have limited autonomy here. And it’s very funny in that, you know, if Amazon has set up this, this totally [00:27:00] arbitrary distance, um, to pretend that these drivers are not their workers, well, the owners of these companies are gonna realize that in fact, they too are just lower level managers for a workforce.

And so it’s no surprise that they might end up kind of tacitly supporting unionization. so anyway, just to keep it short here, What happened was the teamsters announced that these workers had unionized, that they had gotten recognition, and in fact, they have voted and accepted a tentative agreement, so they have a contract.

Amazon immediately came out and said, One, these are not our workers as laid out in the law. two, we actually already told this guy who runs this company that he’s gonna have his contract canceled, for failure, you know, poor for poor performance. Um, and this is just a kind of PR play on his part and on the teamsters part, that hasn’t been, we haven’t figured out yet.

No one has gotten the documents really about when the timeline of Amazon’s contract cancellation happened. You know, if it happened after Amazon became [00:28:00] aware of the union organizing, you know, you could make the case that that was a violation of labor law. So that’s all gonna play out in the courts. I think the b t s owner himself is now kind of going along with trying to sue Amazon.

 it is worth noting though that that’s the complication is, you know, Unions specifically the Teamsters have tried this before and Amazon has just canceled the contract with that D S P, because they have the right to do that. and they do have total control over these DSPs. Um, you know, the owner of A D S P is always instructed to fight any union efforts.

 Amazon, you know, kind of by every legal standing should be considered the employer, but they also, as it stands right now, Can simply retaliate by canceling a contract, effectively making these workers out of work, come the end of that contract. so we’ll see what happens. You know, I think it’s just worth noting as a last point on this, that the teamsters have kind of anticipated that this would happen.

so in May they did file a complaint with federal Labor re [00:29:00] regulators, um, saying that Amazon should be considered a joint or sole employer of the Palmdale workers.

 I am not in the prediction game, especially when it comes to extremely, untested unionization efforts at Amazon. 

I think Sean O’Brien, um, and all of the rank and filers who are sort of leading this organizing at the ground level really understand that they need to find a way to break through at Amazon, even though the legal structure of these delivery.

Driver’s employment. You know, it makes for immense obstacles. so I’m very glad that they are, again, throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks. 

Teddy Ostrow: Well, I certainly won’t ask you to look into the legal crystal ball here, but, um, Yeah. I think it’s also worth just noting that while there is this complex, complicated barrier to, for these workers, uh, what they want in their contract, would be life changing, right?

Like, so $30 an hour, like right to refuse unsafe delivery, which is a serious problem across delivery [00:30:00] services. Um, a number of things, um, that they won’t. We will see if they’ll get it. but it, it’s, it would be a real shift and including, uh, no, no strike clause. Right. Yeah. So this is somewhat, this is kind of transformational stuff, 

Alex Press: uh, that implemented.

I just wanna add that another thing was like, I. When you talk to those Palmdale drivers, like a key kind of impetus for the organizing was that just like Amazon warehouse workers, just like u p s drivers, heat on the job was becoming incredibly unsafe. they’ll say that one of these workers, I think last summer passed out and had to be taken to the hospital.

That it’s, you know, I think I read a quote from someone in the bargaining unit who said, it’s like being in Asana. You know, just, it’s completely unbearable. This has also, you know, led workers to organize across industries and, you know, these are very serious issues that Amazon certainly has proven it is not taking seriously and cannot be trusted to take seriously.

 [00:31:00] I know u p s workers similarly have been agitating not only for u p s to be responsible, for regulating the temperatures both in the vehicles and in the, the buildings, but, you know, this is. I, the Amazon warehouse workers that I talked about earlier, often, that’s also a leading thing. You know, they want higher wages, they want better benefits and better schedules.

they want less unsafe work in the sense of. Less of a strenuous quota on them, but they also often are passing out in these warehouses or having heat stroke. And so this is again, a unifying kind of issue across the industry. Um, no matter what type of logistics work you’re doing with rising temperatures, especially a summer approaches, you know, this becomes something that is not so hard to under, um, to understand for anyone who works these jobs.

Teddy Ostrow: let’s bring in the Teamsters Up s contract campaign.

Mm-hmm. Uh, you wrote a great piece about it in Jack bin, uh, that I encourage everyone to read. And you, you noted how [00:32:00] organizing Amazon as well as negotiating a better UPS contract, um, Was central to Teamsters United, uh, Sean O’Brien’s bid to the Teamsters general presidency. And I wanna try to thread these goals together.

What, what are the stakes of this contract campaign for the unionization of Amazon? And then what are the stakes of unionizing Amazon for the future of the Teamsters Union? Um, And, you know, the greater working 

class. 

Alex Press: Sure, sure. so it sounds complicated, but it really is not. Right. So when you walk up, say you’re a U p S driver and you walk up to, whether it’s an Amazon warehouse worker who lives on your block or it’s an Amazon delivery driver who is parked outside of the same apartment building as you.

And so you start chatting about unions, they’re gonna say, well, how’s your union contract? Like, why, what do you get? you know, not to to pretend that workers are only interested in that, but of course that’s what they want to know. and you know, I think it’s not a secret that [00:33:00] the teamsters negotiated a very weak contract, in the last round of negotiations.

So weak that it ended. Hoffa Jr’s career and led to Sean O’Brien becoming the President of the Union. Um, and so, you know, and it has tears. It has all these things that you’ve talked about on the show before. and so that is not something a worker can confidently approach an Amazon worker with and try to, you know, convince them that their union is, has their back, will never sell them out, we’ll never abandon them, um, and is democratic.

None of those things were true in that last contract. It was in fact, You know, a democratic vote was overridden by arcane union bureaucracy rules, you know, the classic kind of worst version of unionism. and so it’s very important that Sean, you know, can go out there and actually win a strong contract.

 you know, pay for part-timers will be part of that because Amazon workers are often part-time and they’re going to have more in common with the inside workers at up s than they, you know, might have with the ups. Drivers, you know, as far as the direct Amazon [00:34:00] warehouse workers. but similarly the delivery drivers at both companies.

You know, there needs to be this sense of victory that’s very rooted in real progress, including undoing concessions. So that’s on the one side, very practically, it’s just you can’t. It, it’s almost like suicide to go tell your rank and file organizers, your kind of best union militants to go pretend to another worker that you have a great contract when in fact they’re the ones who are most certain that they don’t have good contract.

 so that is existential. And then on the flip side, you know, it’s, If, you know, if I, I think I’ve kind of laid this out earlier of what does organizing Amazon do for u p s workers? Well, as I said, if they don’t organize Amazon warehouse workers and delivery drivers soon, they may just not exist as a union.

I mean, that’s like catastrophism that I’m saying. But Amazon has so much power and is, has so much growth and so much political control as well. I mean, with the lobbying arm and the tax. Breaks that they get, and the sort of [00:35:00] influential people in their realm. it’s hard to imagine how the u p s.

U like the bargaining unit stays together going forward. They will be chipped away at every single contract round with U P s executives saying through their lawyers across the table, we can’t do it because there’s Amazon workers, you know, that are, they’re gonna undercut our business and they’re gonna take our business and we’re gonna go out of business unless you agree to concessions.

So these things are incredibly tied up with each other, and I think Sean O’Brien did a very good job of laying that out throughout his campaign. And my understanding from speaking with the UPS workers who lead this Amazon organizing, you know, sort of behind the scenes and on the ground, is that they really do feel like they’re being charged with trying a.

What they can to sort of organize certain facilities to support things at legislative levels that gives a little more power to workers, makes it a little easier, to actually organize them in the first place. and so, you know, my hope is that [00:36:00] that vision continues to stay kind of connected in that integrated way, that it was laid out during the campaign.

Teddy Ostrow: And while I have you, uh, the, the Amazon guru of labor journalism, is there anything else that we didn’t touch on on Amazon that you think is really important for, the Teamsters listening for non Teamsters listening? Anybody out there? 

Alex Press: Yeah, I mean, I think this is, I’m sure it’s been said on your show before if Amazon has come up, but you know, as I tried to say, there are very different efforts going on among Amazon workers, right?

There has been, you know, formal organizing with R W D S U in Bessemer, and with the teamsters, both among warehouses, workers and delivery drivers. There has been minority unionism like Amazonians United. There’s been independent use unionism like cause in North Carolina or the A L U. And again, like there are real tensions of course, and some of that comes from these workers fueling.

As they would say to me [00:37:00] before any of these efforts started many years ago, they would say, our working conditions are so terrible. This work is so dangerous and detrimental to our bodies, and the pay is so low. Why aren’t unions helping us? You know, there was a real sense of like, Kind of loss or betrayal or just confusion about, you know, isn’t the labor movement supposed to be here for us?

And so it’s very hard to just immediately undo that distrust. but I think I’ve seen, just in the course of my short five years since that opening anecdote about the Labor Notes Conference, there have been real ties being built across these efforts, across these divisions of strategy. and I just think u p s workers, everyone I’ve spoke to already understands this, but I just wanna underline it, that like, Everyone needs each other if anyone is gonna win, right?

Whether a teamster’s organized warehouse down the line is gonna win, whether the a l u is ever gonna win a contract, it requires every single person on this, in this broader kind of ecosystem of organizing logistics to have each other’s backs.[00:38:00] Despite, and even with those differences. Um, and so that’s really the thing I try to say to people, you know, often I think people outside of the labor movement or outside of, you know, the left, want to play up the divisions and say like, so do these people hate the teamsters?

Do these people hate the A L U? And it’s like, it doesn’t matter. At the end of the day, everyone has each other’s phone numbers and they need each other. and so that is kind of the perspective I try to take. And I certainly would hope u p s workers. Would take that kind of bigger view, whether it’s about organizing or about the fact that Amazon workers seem to undercut their job standards.

You know, everybody has the same enemies here. In fact, their enemies are like friends who hang out at dinners in dc um, the c e o of one company or the other. and I just, I never want people to lose sight of that. 

Teddy Ostrow: Alex Press, thanks for joining me on the upsurge. 

Alex Press: Thanks for having me.

Teddy Ostrow: Arturo Sono, welcome to the upsurge. [00:39:00] Thank you for having me. So to start off, I just wanna hear about you, you know, tell, tell everybody about yourself. How do you come to the job, what exactly you do, how long you’ve been doing it, uh, and where you are. Uh, right now 

Arturo Solezano: I live in Port, California.

I have a fiance, a baby on the way in August, it’s gonna be a girl. We trying to find a big future together. You know, I got through Amazon, Before I battle tested, I was actually at a fulfillment center, but the drive was too far from me and 

Teddy Ostrow: this was a lot closer. And so you’re a driver. How long have you been doing that?

About 

Arturo Solezano: two and a half years now. 

Teddy Ostrow: And what, what exactly does that entail? Can you kind of explain like on a day-to-day basis, uh, what do you do? 

Arturo Solezano: So, in the mornings We’re supposed to have a stand [00:40:00] a meeting, but we really, it’s only once in a while, we grab our pouches, we check the vehicles, make sure there’s like no nails, nothing damage, line up load of our vans and go get gas if we need to, and then just start 

Teddy Ostrow: our routes.

So it’s very similar, to what perhaps a, a number of other, so-called last mile delivery drivers do, like at FedEx, like at ups, uh, you pick up the packages, you drop ’em off at people’s homes as I take it. Yes. So I, I’m curious, you know, around the country, we’ve been hearing a lot about some of the issues that drivers at Amazon deal with.

Some of them are pretty similar to the issues at U P s, listeners of this show certainly know about those. maybe you could get into some of those issues, that you and your coworkers have with the workplace. 

Arturo Solezano: Uh, in the summertime. [00:41:00] Those, those, they feel like saunas and they don’t have ac so all day we’re just sweating and being dehydrated and the sun is so much in like two water bottles can douch for us, but we, and then they get mad at us if we are trying to take our breaks cause. It’s just hot, you know, we’re trying to recover.

I had her friend who actually had to go to the hospital cause she over, um, overheated. But thank God now she’s, you know, she’s safe. But she had to leave the job because it 

Teddy Ostrow: was just too dangerous for her. Wow. So you, you guys don’t have air conditioning at, at all, or they, it doesn’t function or, and you guys have to deal with that on 

Arturo Solezano: some fence.

The air condition is supposed to work, but it is very like light. And then we have like just the little fans, regular fans, but they just throw hot air. 

Teddy Ostrow: Do you feel unsafe when you’re doing this and [00:42:00] you’re in Southern California, right? So I assume it gets ridiculously hot. Mm-hmm. 

Arturo Solezano: Yeah. So it, I try to, whenever I can just try to find somewhere where she, uh, I’ll be behind, uh, sometimes, but I’m trying to protect myself first.

Teddy Ostrow: And have you ever, you know, told your employer like, Hey, look, it’s, it’s too hot out here. What, what kind of responses do you get? Or is it not even worth going that far? 

Arturo Solezano: we told ’em and they told us like, Amazons are the ones that can cut the routes, but they really don’t. If anything, they may take like 10 stops and that’s nothing.

You know, you get a hundred, 200 stops. You know, one 90 stop is not gonna do anything and we’re out there in the sun. Sometimes the, the temperature would read 1 30, 1 40 even. We had customers that come out there and look at us and they [00:43:00] feel so bad they’ll rush back inside their house and get those ice and stuff.

Cause they see how bad it is. 

Teddy Ostrow: Wow. And that isn’t, that’s, I mean, that’s a major safety issue as I understand it, that that isn’t the only safety issue you guys have, right? Mm-hmm. I heard something about dogs, um, I’m sure a lot of delivery drivers deal with that. Can, can you tell me about some of those other issues that have to do with your safety?

Arturo Solezano: Uh, yeah. I actually got bited by the dog once, um, it was hiding underneath the step van, and as soon as I was stepping in, I just grabbed him by the ankle, pulled me. And it was a stray dog. Uh, but there was other houses and none of them cleaned. So I ended up getting handed to get a clean shot. Wow. 

Teddy Ostrow: Uh, and do you ever feel like that might happen again?

That you, you see a dog in a yard and, you know, 

Arturo Solezano: feel like you’re not able? Yeah, so now I [00:44:00] can’t, I don’t even feel safe to go into people’s yards to drop off their packages. And sometimes they’ll order like heavy things and I don’t like to leave it on the sidewalk, you know? And I’ll call ’em and I’ll wait.

But eventually I can’t stay there forever Cause Amazon is tracking my movement. They said you gotta do, you know, certain amount by this time. 

Teddy Ostrow: And you know, UPSers for example, they can, if it seems like it’s unsafe, they’re generally allowed to say like, Hey, this is an unsafe delivery.

I’m not gonna make this delivery. what would happen if you told, uh, your employer that, Hey, this is too, this is too risky for me. They, 

Arturo Solezano: they’d rather have us, uh, try to risk it. And deliver it anyway, cuz Amazon just try, tries to analyze us and then we end up losing days, you know, hours. And that’s money that we need to provide our families.

Teddy Ostrow: Speaking of money, um, [00:45:00] there, the pay I’ve heard is, is, is an issue. Um, can you talk, can you talk about that? Maybe your, your personal experience, but also those of your coworkers. What, what is the pay like at Amazon? Is it enough, um, uh, where you are? 

Arturo Solezano: No, we feel like we’re getting underpaid. We should be unpaid.

At least the same as, as, uh, ups they get 40 or 30. Yeah, I’m not really sure, but we feel like we should get somewhere similar cause we’re doing the exact same thing as them. And we’re do, and our conditions are probably a lot less, uh, safe than theirs. 

Teddy Ostrow: And what is it like to not get enough money? I mean, you, you live in Southern California.

 I can imagine the cost of living is high, where you are. Um, what does it mean to not make the same as other drivers for you? You mentioned you have a, a fiance and, and [00:46:00] child on the way. 

Arturo Solezano: Yeah, like, um, like on the side, I have to donate my plasma to make the extra money for anything that. I can’t cover with my, Hey, it’s all my days off.

I have to go do something to make sure I have that money for us to make sure we can’t get by. 

Teddy Ostrow: Now, the the last thing I wanted to touch on, just because it, it seems like such a major issue, not only, um, among delivery drivers, but, but in the warehouse too. Um. Is like these performance requirements that at times seem really extreme, seems to loop into the, the safety issues them saying you can’t not deliver.

Can you talk about, uh, the pressure on you guys, and how Amazon is, tracking you and wanting you to perform at a pace that is probably unsafe? 

Arturo Solezano: yeah. So Amazon tracks our [00:47:00] system through their van. And in our package count and they’ll see, hey, we only done certain amount at this time. Uh, let ask them and ask them why they’re behind cuz they need to catch up.

And when I tell ’em, you know, we gotta wait for this, we gotta do that. Apartments, sometimes it takes forever to get in. Customers don’t wanna come out to get their packages cause their dogs are outside and they, they get mad at us and then we end up having to skip our breaks and stuff. Because we have to go and try to catch up.

Teddy Ostrow: have people been disciplined or, or fired or cut? what kind of, uh, retaliation do you see? 

Arturo Solezano: a couple of my friends have been let go. A lot of people have been cut their hours. They just like to monitor every little thing with us. they actually let go of someone.

It wasn’t, uh, our, the BTS people, it was Amazon that let [00:48:00] go one of our workers instead. Like they just denied on their flex thing. But I don’t know that much details about it. 

Teddy Ostrow: Well, I’m glad you brought up that it was Amazon doing this. Um, So, you know, you, as I understand it, you drive a, an Amazon truck and you wear an Amazon uniform.

Uh, and it seems like Amazon has a lot of control over your employment, but, but technically you don’t work for Amazon. I’m curious, what do you think about that? Is, is Amazon not really in control of you, or are they, who, who do you really work for? 

Arturo Solezano: Mm, it’s even though it says, they say we’re not, We really are.

Cause they get mad at us if we don’t wear their Amazon uniform. If, but yeah, like the people inside the fact, inside the building, they wear like their pajamas and whatever they want. But if we get something like that, wear different color shorts or jeans or something, they get, they [00:49:00] send us home. Even though we’re like, we’re not really Amazon though.

But yet you’re still trying to send us home for not being with you guys. 

Teddy Ostrow: so we, we, we actually have you on the show because you and, and your coworkers did something really exciting that everyone seems to be cheering you on for, um, rightfully, uh, you unionized, uh, your D S P or delivery service provider.

It’s called battle tested strategies. You guys unionized with the Teamsters Local 3 96. Um, You know, that’s, that’s kind of a brave thing to do. I’m, I’m curious, why, why did you guys want to unionize with the teamsters? 

Arturo Solezano: We just wanted our fair pay and everything, you know, and safety with this job. Cause, you know, being in those vans, it’s just extremely, it’s just there, just very hot. Like Asana. Um, they, I doing this just cause I wanna be able to provide for my family. You know, my little daughter is on her way. [00:50:00] I wanna make sure she’s taken care of growing up.

Teddy Ostrow: I feel 

Arturo Solezano: like they’re the ones that are actually trying, that are actually looking out for me. They’re the ones that have my back a lot more than Amazon ever did.

Teddy Ostrow: Have you noticed any sort of, retaliation from Amazon since you guys, joined up with Local 3 96? 

Arturo Solezano: uh, yeah. Actually the very first day they grounded my van for something so small that, and it was a easy fix, but it took him an hour to clear it. And one of the Amazon people actually came up to me.

 kind of like talked to me like, oh, are you gonna be able to finish a route? I’m like, dude, we’re still working. You know, why? Why do you think we’re here? Of course I can deal with my route. It’s gonna take me a little longer now cause you guys are making me wait more, but I could still get it done. 

Teddy Ostrow: And you think this has something to do with [00:51:00] organizing?

Mm-hmm. 

Arturo Solezano: Cause now they’re like picking, they’re picking with every little thing they can with us, with our vans. They’re, they’re cutting down our routes. sometimes they’re very hostile towards us, and we’re just like, yo, we’re just here just to do our jobs too. Why you guys even being hostile towards.

Teddy Ostrow: yeah. So, uh, you guys, you guys not only unionize, but you want a union contract and a, as far as I understand, you want some pretty transformational stuff.

So some of it may not be enforceable yet, but nonetheless, can, can you talk about some of the things you guys won, in this contract? Yeah, 

Arturo Solezano: we fought for advance, so they’re now more safer for us. we’re able to refuse, uh, deliveries that are actually, you know, unsafe that we can’t do. and we’re fighting for a bigger race.

Teddy Ostrow: How, how much money do you guys win? I, I, it’s, it’s pretty [00:52:00] high, right? It’s, uh, $30 a hour. Is that gonna make a difference for you? Yeah, 

Arturo Solezano: it’ll help me out so much to provide for my family. 

Teddy Ostrow: I’m, one thing I’m curious about is, uh, How you’ve interacted with other delivery drivers or other delivery, uh, or other logistics companies like ups.

Uh, have you interacted with any UPSers? 

Arturo Solezano: Uh, yes. Uh, some of them actually come and help us pick it. Uh, I see, I’ll see someone my delivery route and they’ll say, Hey. Welcome to the Union brother. You know, congrats.

You know, this is what 

Teddy Ostrow: we’re here for. 

Arturo Sono, thanks for joining me on the Thank you. Yeah, have a good 

Arturo Solezano: one. 

You just listened to episode 8 of The Upsurge. 

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All of your support means so much.

The podcast was edited by myself

It was produced by NYGP and Ruby Walsh.

Music is by Casey Gallagher.

The cover art was done by Devlin Claro Resetar.

I’m Teddy Ostrow. Thanks for listening and catch you next time.

UPS is a patriarchal corporation – on the corporate and labor side. Whether it’s sexual harassment or pregnancy discrimination, women at UPS confront particular workplace issues because of their gender. We spoke with Michelle Espinoza, a feeder driver out of Teamsters Local 135 in Indianapolis, about the gender discrimination she’s battled at the company and the work she’s doing to help other Teamster women.

Additional links/info below…

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Show Notes

• See Joe Allen’s Teamsters election reading list from 2021 for a number of sources, including some below.
• Young v. United Parcel Service.
• Joe Allen, “Sent Packing,” Jacobin, December 19, 2018.
• Stephen Franklin, “Sandy Pope: The Woman Who Would Rule the Teamsters,” In These Times, October 13, 2010.
• Leah F. Vosko and David Scott Witwer, “‘Not a Man’s Union’: Women Teamsters in the United States during the 1940s and 1950s,” Journal of Women’s History, Vol. 13, No. 3 (Autumn 2001).
• Joe Allen, “An UPSurge at the Package King,” SocialistWorker.org, October 8, 2014.
• Cal Winslow, “Fighting Dictatorship at United Parcel: Interview with Anne Mackie“, Workers’ Power newspaper, November 21, 1975.

Hosted by Teddy Ostrow

Edited by Teddy Ostrow & Ruby Walsh

Produced by NYGP & Ruby Walsh, in partnership with In These Times & The Real News

Music by Casey Gallagher

Cover art by Devlin Claro Resetar

Transcript

This transcript has been edited for length and clarity

Teddy Ostrow: Hello my name is Teddy Ostrow. Welcome to the Upsurge, a podcast about UPS, the Teamsters, and the future of the American labor movement.

For this bonus episode, I interviewed Michelle Espinoza, a semi-truck driver (or feeder driver in UPS parlance) out of Teamsters Local 135 in Indianapolis.

You may remember the story of Local 135 from episode 3. That is the local where rank and file pushed for a leadership change with the help of Teamsters for a Democratic Union. It’s an inspiring story and you should go back and listen if you like. 

But I spoke to Michelle because of her experience and organizing as a woman at UPS. 

As you might imagine, UPS is a male-dominated corporation, both on the corporate side and on the union/worker side. 

And like across all institutions of our society, there are structural obstacles, challenges, prejudices, issues that women uniquely face at UPS. You could say the same thing about non-white and particularly Black UPSers, as well as LGBTQ+ UPSers. 

There is a long history of women organizing at UPS that we can’t fully cover here. I’ll throw some links in the show notes that you should definitely check out. That includes the group UPSurge. Yes, UPSurge, which was a largely women-led militant group in 1970s pushing for a fair contract at UPS, members of which eventually merged into the movement we all know Teamsters for a Democratic Union. 

And also I will include some links about some high profile issues women, particularly pregnant women, have faced at UPS, one such legal case even reached the Supreme Court. 

But this episode is focusing on Michelle’s unique but also not so unique experience as a Black woman at the company, and that includes what she’s doing to organize and educate other women in the workplace. 

Michelle Espinoza, welcome to the Upsurge. 

Michelle Espinoza: Hi Teddy. Thank you for having me.

Teddy Ostrow: I’d love to hear you introduce yourself. How’d you come to UPS? What you do there, you know, how long you’ve been there, your local, those kinds of things. 

Michelle Espinoza: Michelle Espinoza is my name. I have been with UPS for eight years now.

I’m currently a feeder driver, which means I drive the semi trucks. Prior to that I did package car driving. Prior to that I worked in the hub, at one of our local UPS facilities. It was a huge career change for me. I came from the hotel and retail management industry. So eight, nine years in, I’m still pretty new to the gang because a lot of UPSs are 25, 30 year employees.

I kind of got baptized by fire, got my feet wet quick, and here I am.

Teddy Ostrow: So as I understand it, you, your husband and your son, all of you guys work at UPS—you’re like a UPS family?

Michelle Espinoza: We are a UPS family; it’s my husband, myself and we have two daughters that are also UPSers. Our son is not a UPSer at this time. Not yet. But we have two daughters. One is a feeder driver along with us, which means she drives a semi as well. My husband is a feeder driver as well.

And we have a daughter that works inside of one of our main hubs here in Indianapolis. 

Teddy Ostrow: Wow. Really a family affair full of Teamsters. That’s so cool. I approached you initially at the TDU Convention in Chicago because I heard you speak before hundreds of people.

You responded to Sean O’Brien. You posed a question directly, mentioning some of the issues that specifically women at UPS were dealing with. Then we talked, and you kind of walked me through your journey at UPS and the obstacles you were forced to navigate because of your gender, your identity.

I want to get into your specific story, but first maybe we could start a little, generally: What are the specific gendered issues that women are having at the company?

Michelle Espinoza: Sure. These are my opinions, but I also gather information like this from other UPS women. I have a Facebook group of, I think we’ve reached about 8,500 women at this point, so it’s my experience and information that I get from them. 

So, some of the things that I’ve had to deal with working in a smaller hub: initially, it was all men except for three women. Well, drivers anyway. As you’re going through a small hub like that, and it’s majority male, you can only imagine some of the male type of comments that may come past a female.

Anything that you can think about, probably it gets said to you and they like to pass it off as joking, but after a while, if you don’t develop tough enough skin, it can really get to you and tear you down. 

A lot of the women deal with pregnancy issues, breastfeeding issues, how to navigate, how to cope. We have women in all facets of UPS careers, whether they’re working in the hub, whether they’re driving a package car, delivering packages to your home or driving the semi trucks. 

So we hear a lot of different stories that women go through, even down to how a woman should dress working inside the hub. So we have to navigate [things] carefully. We have a few more landmines that we have to avoid that the men don’t. We just kind of try to stick together and help answer each other’s questions so that we can get through it. 

Teddy Ostrow: Is it pretty rare for women to hold the feeder driver position? Can you tell me a bit about who works what job? 

Michelle Espinoza: Being a woman in UPS, whatever your job is, you’re gonna be the minority.

The feeder department is the top of the line job that you could have for UPS. It used to take, in our area, 10 years or more to start in the hub and make your way up into the feeder department. My path and my daughter’s path was much quicker because the demand for semi drivers is so great.

Across the country, we’re experiencing a demand for semi drivers, but right here in Indianapolis, our workload has doubled or tripled. Like I said, I’ve just been in the feeder department for five years now, six years. Before that I worked a package car in the hub, so that would make my total eight years.

My daughter got hired in February of 2020, I believe. As she got hired, she was able to come into the feeder department six months later.

That is normally unheard of, but because of the need for drivers, that was her story. She was able to move much quicker to get into this high paying job. 

Teddy Ostrow: Yeah, I’ve never heard of anything like that. That’s pretty incredible. Maybe you could bring us through your journey at UPS, and as I understand, throughout your time you’ve had to file grievances. You fought the company, you fought the previous administration of your local union.

Let’s start at the beginning of when you tried to rise through the ranks and started seeing obstacles; and what you did about that. So maybe we can start with when you were in the hub, trying to become a package car driver?

Michelle Espinoza: When I started in the hub, here in Indianapolis, I was at a very small hub. They called our hub the country club, because it was so small and full of men and they had everything situated the way that they like it. I came in as a seasonal worker. 

I came in just as a Christmas helper where I would ride with a driver that delivered packages to homes and I would hop out, deliver a few at homes and hop back in. He’d drive a little bit, he’d give me some more. I’d jump out. Run the packages to the door, scan them, ring the doorbell, and then jump back in.

That was what my seasonal work as a helper looked like. At the completion of that season, I got hired on, it’s called permanent part-time, in the hub. So I started off, when the semis would pull in, I was unloading and loading those semis with the packages. Then as you progress, you move into loading the package cars or unloading them.

I did that for a little while and then I was able to qualify for what they call a premium hub job, where I moved into ‘small sort’, which is what they call it;. [sorting] packages you can hold with one hand or two hands that are smaller.

I was moving those through the building, putting them in bags and sending ’em on their way so that they could get loaded into trucks, and so forth. Then, I got word that my building needed to hire an early morning delivery person to get packages that had to be out before 9:00 AM delivered.

I thought I would be interested in that. So I signed up. That was the first fight. Because what I didn’t realize that was I was taking that early morning work from the head union steward at the building. If he came in early to do those early deliveries, he got paid time and a half—it’s a significant amount of money. With what they make, and he had been doing it probably three years at this point. So even though I had been awarded the job, it took three, four months for me to fight to get to actually do the job.

And mind you, it’s a pay increase when you move into something like that. But I had to fight him and my union hall to actually get the job and start doing it. I had to make phone calls to corporate people with UPS waving the flag saying, “Hey, I got the bid, it says I should have been able to start within 30 days. Help me.”

So finally I got that. They liked me delivering those little quick packages. So then the opportunity came to become a part-time delivery person in their hub; I would work in the hub part of the day and then deliver another part of the day. 

So that’s when we get into, “Oh, well if you want to be more like a part-time or full-time package car driver for us, you’re gonna have to go to inter grad.” Inter grad is like a package car UPS driver bootcamp. No one in that building had ever been required to go to inter grad.

But when I come along and sign the list that I want to become one of your regular package car drivers, guess who has to go to UPS boot camp? So even getting the opportunity to get to the bootcamp, even though no one else had to do it, I had to fight for that too. They tried their best to put a couple other men in front of me that they thought should want that job and should go to the inter grad. Well, none of them were able to make it. One guy who was supposed to go with me, we were supposed to meet at the airport to fly to Chicago. He didn’t show up, he chickened out and backed out at the last minute. So from my hub, I was the only person going.

So I went. And they had bets, literal money bets against me that I wouldn’t pass. I did. So I came back, and instead of crediting me the time I had already spent delivering their packages for them after bootcamp, they wanted to put me through the 30 day training period with them.

So now I had to go through another training period and pass their requirements. That means you have to run so many packages in so many hours of the day called “make scratch”, and they didn’t think I would be able to do that either.

Honestly, Teddy, I didn’t think I was gonna be able to do it. I was scared to death every day for 30 days, wondering if I was gonna get into a small accident or if I’m gonna be able to make scratch. Well, every time they gave me my route every day for 30 days, Teddy, I made scratch. 

Teddy Ostrow: When, when you say that they were making bets, who, who was making bets? Is this other people at your hub, union stewards or who was making bets on you? 

Michelle Espinoza: Drivers at the hub, other drivers.

Teddy Ostrow: And normally the male drivers don’t have to go to this bootcamp. After that, this 30 day trial period, is, is that also normal for people to have to do?

Michelle Espinoza: Being that I had passed inter grad, I didn’t then and I had already been driving for them. I didn’t think they would make me do it again, but they did.

After all of that, I became a full-time package car driver. Once I have my sight set on something, then they’re set. After I became a package car driver, I heard that going into the feeder department might actually be possible because they were gonna be putting the annual list up for anybody that was interested.

Well, I found out the lists had gone up at a big hub and a smaller hub, but it didn’t come to my building. But per our contract, it says it was supposed to. Well, they said to me, because remember what I call this place, it’s the country club. They have everything set the way they want to have it set.

They had worked it out somewhere prior to me that the list doesn’t come to that building. Only if they don’t get the drivers that they need from the other two buildings. The contract said when it goes up at the other two buildings, it’s simultaneously supposed to go up at our building as well. That was my first grievance.

“You violated the contract because you didn’t post it at the exact same time that you posted the others”. Someone with lower seniority than me may be having the opportunity to go into feeders and I haven’t even been able to sign the list. That’s my first grievance. It didn’t take too much for that grievance to get a win.

I don’t even know if the grievance even had to be heard because our human resources department actually agreed with me and said, we just never have put it up over there, basically, because they didn’t want it, they didn’t want to lose any of their package car drivers to feeder, so the list just had never gone up there and HR agreed that’s not acceptable. Contract says it’s supposed to be up, so the list goes up. This is what I start hearing from my, now we’re talking managers. “Well, there’s a pecking order. You’ll never make it, here, you actually can use my pen and sign it, but I can guarantee you won’t get the call.”

I signed it. There were specific requirements that said you have to have your permit by the such and such date. When we call you, you need to be ready to go to the class and so forth. Well, when that date came and went, the list came down.

I was the only one that had her permit and was ready to go. They did not let me go. They said, we need to give these other four men in front of you a chance to get their permit to see if they can qualify to go into feeders. That’s where the next grievance was filed. NLRB charges were filed and EEOC charges were filed because it was very clear what the bid sheet said the requirements were. I was the only one to have it, and they started giving these men extra time to get the credentials they should have had. Two guys were able to get the credentials. One, unfortunately ended up not going into feeders because he had to go to prison.

The other guy got over into feeders. His first week, he has a horrible accident and tears down electricity in a small community. Well then guess who they’re looking at again? Me, I get my chance to go into feeders. I passed the first round to get my CDL, and I’ve never had to look back.

The union hall’s angry at me. Union stewards at the old building, at the new building, they hate me. I’m a troublemaker. I had to be willing to risk losing my job in order to get the rights that my contract said were owed to me, and that was very scary. That was very scary, to go up against UPS managers, and against your union.

But the reason why that happened to me that way is because, my heart just tells me, I was female. EEOC definitely was interested in the case and the NLRB was too. I got a phone call from one of the top leaders of my union hall; he said, ”darling,”—that was his favorite word to call me, darling—“if you pull those labor charges back, I know I can get you into that next class.” And I said, ”sir, get me into the next class and once I get into feeders, I’ll pull them.” And that’s what I did, and that’s how I got into feeders. 

Teddy Ostrow: Wow. It’s incredible how you had to navigate both issues and resistance from your union as well as the company. Was it hard to kind of, you know, not just lose it at people who are clearly trying to just stop you from getting what you deserve? 

Michelle Espinoza: My adrenaline. I can feel it right now, Teddy.

Just remembering it all, I can feel my voice kind of shake. It was one of the most frustrating and agitating and belittling events that I’ve ever had happen to me. I would go into work every day, I would keep my head up. I knew I was right and just trying to hold my chest up, but then when I would come home, I would pretty much collapse in tears and I would cry to my husband.

We’d pull out our union books, pull out paperwork, pull up the internet, looking at information, reading everything we could read to know what’s the next thing to do. And it was scary because you know you have to pull these levers, but you know you’re going to upset people that could affect your job.

They could find a reason to fire you, and because your union is angry with you for filing charges against them, they could find reasons to not help you get your job back. So I had to tell myself, I gotta risk it all in order to win it all. And that’s scary and a lot of people can’t do that. But because I had my husband and he was our provider, I could play that game a little bit, in order to get what I knew I deserved.

So it was very, very hard. It was excruciating at times. It got to a point where I would be on the phone with a union leader and we’re, I’m cussing, he’s cussing. I mean, we’re yelling and I’d get off the phone and I’d come home and I’d tell my husband, I’m probably not gonna have a job tomorrow, but that never happened.

I finally got the call and he said, I’ll get you in if it was still a negotiation, but it was a game that had to be played. I don’t know what you want to call it, Teddy, but I got it and that’s why I’m here, able to talk to you about it today. It’s one of my passions, helping women navigate the sea of UPS corporate and union [politics], because it’s not always cut and dry as the book says it should be when it comes to some of us.

Teddy Ostrow: It sounds like you aren’t just fighting for your own job. Can you talk a bit about what you’ve done to help other people, and what you’ve heard from other people?

Michelle Espinoza: As soon as I got into the feeder department, [soon after], I had been asked to become a union steward.

The only reason I looked to be a good union steward was because of all the fighting I had already done. I had to memorize our contract. And I wasn’t afraid to argue and fight with the Union Hall.

I wasn’t afraid to argue and fight with the company. So when I came over into feeders and they offered that to me, I said yes. One of the first things I start doing was comparing apples to apples, my husband and my insurance packages. What do I have? What does he have?

I found out that I had a supplemental policy that he did not have, and I’m talking about a million dollar coverage that as UPSers we were able to get. I’m talking cents on the dollar is what it cost us. And he didn’t have it. Well, as I start digging into that, many, most of the feeder drivers did not have this coverage because they were more senior drivers.

Well, seniority is seniority. There’s no way a junior driver should have more than a senior driver. When I started digging into that and found out what they didn’t know, it literally hurt my heart. I don’t like when people don’t know something because what you don’t know can hurt you. So I filed a group grievance.

We got it all worked out. We had to fight for about a year and a half to get everybody who wanted that insurance to get it. At the same time as a union steward, I realized we have a lot of women that don’t have a voice, we don’t have an ear, we don’t have a space. So I said, I’m gonna try to create a Facebook page for the women at my building.

Well, I did that with the feeder department and then I said, you know what? This isn’t just about feeders. This is bigger. Women are the minority at UPS. So I had this crazy idea. Let me open it up to all UPS women—that’s union and non-union women. We shared this page together and that’s where a whole new family was born.

Corporate women management supervisors, union women, we are all on this page and you see them talking, sharing, helping, sending phone numbers. Hey, I can’t talk about that here, but private message me, I can get you some answers. It took off on its own to where I had to get other women to help me administer the page.

I couldn’t keep up with just approving the women cuz we make sure you’re a UPSer or one way or another before we’ll let you on the page. And we definitely, it sounds back backwards, but we keep men off. But it’s because the women, what we talk about are UPS womens’ issues that if we were to ask, “Hey, what’s the best breath pump that we can use while we’re out here on the road? What have you guys been doing to keep the milk cold?” We can’t ask that with all those men. You can only imagine the jokes that would go if we were asked that question over there. But on our page, we talk about what we need. And that’s where I learned so much about how I’m not the only woman that’s had to be shorted or fight, or, the sad part is women are afraid to fight because many of them are the sole provider for their household, so they can’t risk losing their job to get what they deserve.

So, just trying to educate the women. I always try to tell ’em, educate yourself to make yourself equal. What you don’t know can hurt you. So I tell them, get your contracts, read your information. Get on a UPS site. Read what corporate wants to have for you. Put it all together with the union contract and then go demand it.

And we just kinda walk each other through it. Some women just will never be as tenacious as someone like me and put up that kind of fight for herself. But sometimes those that can’t, we just kind of try to give them support, encouragement, the best way we can. But that’s what the page is for and that’s how I call myself trying to help other people within UPS; just learning how to navigate and how to play the game. 

Teddy Ostrow: Last time we spoke, you mentioned also starting a women’s caucus at your local. I know that those exist at different locals, and perhaps at the international level as well. Has there been any progress on that? 

And alsom how some of these issues that women specifically face, have people tried to try to fold that into the current contract campaign that’s happening at UPS right now?

Michelle Espinoza: We haven’t had to focus on it as far as the contract campaign, but I am proud to say that we will be having our inaugural women’s meeting. We are ecstatic to be announcing that and sharing that with sisters and hoping we can pack the house and start some education and find out what their needs are on a local level and start giving them education to help themselves. 

Teddy Ostrow: So what is on the horizon? What are the things that you want out of UPS, out of the union, specifically for women at UPS? 

Michelle Espinoza: I would think for my union, because it’s not just UPS workers at my union hall; I want to know other teamster women here locally in Indiana. I want know who they are. I want to know what they do. I’m knowledgeable about UPS, but I’ve learned there are sisters that drive duck trucks. There are sisters we have that are airline stewards, they’re our sisters. We have those that are daycare providers. They’re everywhere in Indianapolis, and I don’t know who they are. Our new leadership has taken the bull by the horns. We were so segregated before, each company to its own.

It’s like they didn’t want us to talk to each other because they didn’t want one to know what the other had. It might create too much pencil work for them. So they kept us separate. For my local, I want to know who my Teamster sisters are, and I want to get to know them on a personal level. 

As far as UPS is concerned, that is a bigger, bigger, bigger piece to bite off. I would like to see my Facebook group grow. I think last I asked a corporate lady, she said we had an estimated 22,000 women in the UPS system. That was her guesstimate at that time. I’d love to see that page get to 22,000. Then I’d like to see, Teamsters do a Teamster women’s convention. I’d love to see, it sounds selfish because they can’t do a men’s convention because it’d probably shut down the company, but something that was initiated by UPS for the hub and the drivers. Something for women that we could grab onto that was from UPS that would bring us together, educate us. I would love to see more career paths laid out for the women; have them be a little more hands on with the women knowing that they’re the minority group within this company.

I’m a mother of four daughters, and I was a widow early on raising my children. The thing that I always focused on with my daughters was education. I’m not talking just in the books.

I always said if they were old enough to reach it, they were old enough to learn how to use it. So I believe in teaching women and putting information in their hands to empower them to handle their own life. Now, I’m a married woman, but I know the struggle of being a widow. I know the struggle of being a single young mom. What you don’t know will have you behind and I don’t like women being in that predicament.

Teddy Ostrow: Is there anything else that you think is important to get across to people who might be listening about the issues we were just discussing or the contract campaign going on right now?

Michelle Espinoza: We may consider ourselves a minority because we’re the lower number, but what I don’t like people to do is use that as an excuse to not fight, to not educate. It’s too easy to say, oh, they’re gonna treat me that way because I’m this, or because I’m that. I’m a minority. They’re not gonna pay any attention. It’s very easy to sit back and just accept that type of plight.

That’s why I say Teddy, educate yourself so you can be equal. Education is what will make you equal. If you don’t know, you can’t speak. I don’t care if you’re a woman. I don’t care if you’re African American, your sexual background; those boxes, they make us check to say what we are. We fit ourselves into those boxes, and then we stop working and we stop fighting. I don’t want people to do that. What you want, you have a right to have and you have a right to have the seat at the table.

And I tell people, educate yourself so you can go there and demand it. 

Additional information

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthe​se​times​.com and the​re​al​news​.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

You can also show your support by sharing the episode on social media, giving us a five star rating and writing a review.

Follow us on Twitter @upsurgepod and Facebook, The Upsurge. You can also listen to us on our YouTube channel, The Upsurge.

But the best way to show your support is by becoming a patron of the show at patre​on​.com/​u​p​s​u​r​gepod. We are listener-supported and can’t continue without you. You can find a link in the description.

The podcast was edited by Teddy Ostrow.

It was produced by NYGP and Ruby Walsh.

Music is by Casey Gallagher.

The cover art was done by Devlin Claro Resetar.

The word “logistics” has somewhat of an impersonal ring to it. When you hear it, you think: massive container ships, cranes, eighteen wheelers, aircrafts, conveyor belts, spreadsheets, contracts, and of course, boxes. It’s almost as if all of this infrastructure that moves our goods around the world, around the clock, is running by itself. 

But undergirding “logistics” is one indispensable element: Workers. Millions of them, without whom the colossal flow of goods and services would come grinding to a halt.

In this episode of The Upsurge, we ask how our modern logistics giants, like UPS – and the Teamsters that keep it running – came to wield so much power. It’s a story of gradual but gargantuan changes in the global economy, the “modernization” of production and distribution. But it’s also a tale of struggle over the management and organization of work between unions and corporations

We spoke to Joe Allen, a historian, activist, and truck driver who was a UPS Teamster for almost a decade. He is the author of The Package King: A Rank and File History of the United Parcel Service (Haymarket: 2020). Joe unpacks some of the history of UPS as a company, how it fits into the larger Logistics Revolution in global capitalism, and what it means for workers’ potential for building economic, political and social power. 

Additional links/info below…

• Support the show at Patreon.com/upsurgepod.
• Follow us on Twitter @upsurgepod, Facebook, The Upsurge, and YouTube @upsurgepod.

Hosted by Teddy Ostrow
Edited by Teddy Ostrow
Produced by NYGP & Ruby Walsh, in partnership with In These Times & The Real News
Music by Casey Gallagher
Cover art by Devlin Claro Resetar

Transcript

The following transcript has been edited for length and clarity. 

The word “logistics” has somewhat of an impersonal ring to it. When you hear it, you think: massive container ships, cranes, eighteen wheelers, aircrafts, conveyor belts, spreadsheets, contracts, and of course, boxes. 

It’s almost as if all of this infrastructure that moves our goods around the world, around the clock, is running by itself. The wonders of technology.

But undergirding logistics is one indispensable element. Workers. Millions of them, without whom the colossal flow of goods and services on which we’ve grown dependent, would come grinding to a halt.

Teddy Ostrow: Hello, my name is Teddy Ostrow. Welcome to the Upsurge, a podcast about UPS, the Teamsters, and the future of the American labor movement.

This podcast unpacks the unprecedented labor fight this year at UPS. In July, the contract of over 340,000 UPS workers will expire and if those workers strike, which is a real possibility, it will be the largest strike against a single company in US history.

The Upsurge is produced in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. Both are nonprofit media organizations that cover the labor movement closely. Check them out at inthesetimes.com and therealnews.com where you can also find an archive of all our past episodes.

And now for our episodic plea: Please remember, we are an entirely listener-supported podcast. We don’t play ads. We depend on you to keep the show going. So if you like the show, please become a supporter of our Patreon at patreon.com/upsurgepod. You can find the link in the description. 

Hairspray for Houston. Dog food for Dallas. Samples to Sydney. A contract for Kansas. Sorting parcels seems so simple. The goods come in, they’re sorted, but then they leave. But when your warehouse is bigger than 90 football fields and you’re handling 2 million packages a day, there’s no room for a snooze at UPS.

You can hear the CNN newscasters’ awe with the truly breathtaking infrastructure of UPS’s Worldport air hub in Louisville, Kentucky.

Assisted by 155 miles of conveyor belt, 20,000 UPSers work here, sorting up to 416,000 packages per hour, loading and unloading trucks and planes at the facility’s 70 aircraft docks, where millions of packages are delivered to more than 220 countries and territories around the world. 

The head-spinning operations at Worldport make clear that UPS is not simply a package delivery company, but a multi-national logistics corporation.

Some of us may remember UPS’s ad campaign a decade ago, with the tagline “We Love Logistics”.

In this episode of The Upsurge, we’re zooming out and looking at UPS within a larger process that has occurred over the last several decades: the logistics revolution. 

The Teamsters, a union founded in 1903, has come a long way since its humble origins representing workers who drove carriages pulled by teams of horses.

That story is one of gradual but gargantuan changes in the global economy, the “modernization” of production and distribution. That is, a revolution in how goods are transported to markets, and in how goods are then sold to consumers. 

But it’s also a story of changes in how workers are organized and managed, by both their unions and their companies.

I could think of no better person to talk about this than Joe Allen, a historian, activist and truck driver who was a UPS Teamster for almost a decade. He is a contributor to the online publication Tempest and the author of The Package King: A Rank-and-File History of the United Parcel Service, published by Haymarket Books.

Now, I just want to say that The Upsurge is seriously indebted to Joe Allen and his work. 

So much of my personal learning came from The Package King and from talking with Joe directly. And I know I’m not alone in that.

I really think if you want to understand the importance of the Teamsters’ contract campaign this year, there’s no better work than The Package King. This episode is based on a chapter in the book.

Which is why I was so excited to finally bring Joe on the show to discuss some of the history of UPS as a company, how it fits into this larger logistics revolution in American capitalism, and also how the Teamsters fit into that process too. 

As Joe makes clear, the rise of logistics in the global economy has also meant the rise of workers’ potential for wielding serious economic, political and social power. The Teamsters contract campaign is one major juncture on the road to work power. 

I hope you’ll learn from Joe as I have.

Teddy Ostrow: Joe Allen, welcome to the Upsurge. 

Joe Allen: Thank you. I’m glad to be here. 

Teddy Ostrow: You should probably file a grievance against me for not getting you on the show sooner.

Your work has really inspired us and I’m really excited to chat with you on the show. To get started, I’d like to ask a deceivingly simple question. What is logistics? I feel like the pandemic injected this phrase into our psyches, our everyday conversations, as well as the phrase, “supply chain”.

Can you explore that concept for us? 

Joe Allen: Well, I think it’s become a buzzword. You know that, on one hand if you say it, it implies that everybody knows what you’re talking about. To some degree, the idea behind it is pretty simple and pretty basic, in its most simple form.

It’s, you know, how do you get goods to consumers; from the plant, the manufacturing facility, to the people who have bought it? That’s still in some sense the basic idea of logistics though, for some people at least, it has a kind of military ring to it. 

That’s not an accident. But I think the modern discussion of logistics is on a much grander scale. It means talking about the organization of entire supply chains, which has, you know, occurred for two reasons. One, technological changes: that is, modern air fleets, containerization, the vast expansion of ocean transport, the vast expansion of trucking. All these things come together, but it also means a kind of reorganization of production that allowed for the emergence of these enormous retail giants. Walmart being the kind of trendsetter for this, starting in the late sixties through the seventies, and then becoming a massive corporation during the course of the 1990s, becoming one of the largest private sector employers in the country, which it remains today.

Of course, Amazon, which is both a delivery company and a retail operation. This also applies to the big transportation giants. So, Amazon, Walmart, UPS,, FedEx, DHL, and major post offices in the United States and other countries have emerged as major players and major employers. They sell themselves to major corporations as not just people who just deliver your goods, but they can organize your whole supply chain from where something is manufactured, through how it’s distributed. In the case of the big retail giants over the years, what they’ve tried to do is cut out more and more and more middlemen.

The supply chains themselves have become lean, to use another buzz phrase. They’re exchanged with fewer and fewer hands, and they move quicker and quicker across the globe. It’s clear that the breakdown of global manufacturing and distribution caused by the covid pandemic means that there’s gonna be a reassessing and, and in some sense, we’ve begun to see this reassessing of where production takes place.

So, we’re seeing the reshoring of a lot of manufacturing that used to take place overseas, back in the United States. I think we’re only at the very beginning, but I think we have turned a corner on that.

At the center is the emergence of these huge retail corporations. Walmart, Amazon, Home Depot, Target, and the various transport companies, whether they be UPS, FedEx, DHL, and a whole array of what we call freight.

The industrial working class and the industrial labor movement, which through the late nineties went through these gut-wrenching changes, where unions such as the old Teamsters and the UAW and the steel workers, and you know, related industrial unions who were seen at the heart of the industrial working class really were hollowed out.

Now we’ve seen a kind of regrouping of industrial workers in large workplaces, particularly in the big distribution companies, like Amazon or UPS. So the potential for building a new industrial labor movement is here. The question is, can it be done by the existing unions; do they have to be really changed fundamentally to take advantage of it? Or do we have to create new ones? I think that’s really the big question out there, and I don’t think we have an answer to that yet.

Teddy Ostrow: Part of the goal of this podcast is to unpack what brought us to this moment, when 350,000 Teamsters could shut down a massive pillar of US logistics, UPS and you dove into this history already a little bit. But let’s go back a little bit further in time, and describe this longer process that could be called the logistics revolution.

Can you help us understand what that is? More specifically, how do these courier companies, with an emphasis on UPS, fit into that?

Joe Allen: If you look at UPS, here’s a company that begins in 1907 in Seattle as a bicycle messenger service. So how is it that 125 years later, it’s a global corporation employing half a million workers, that flies to 220 countries and territories a day, and has a massive delivery fleet of 60,000 package cars?

I mean, it has to tell us about something that changed in manufacturing and distribution over the last century. UPS in particular for a long time was a kind of boutique delivery service. It was oriented mostly towards department stores, when people would go in, there was a certain glamor. Part of that was that department stores would wrap your packages and you wouldn’t take them home. And you would be handed off to a UPS, which would then a day or two later deliver these to your home.

That went on for a very long time. And UPS was very good at it. UPS starts out on the West Coast and then in the 1930s makes a leap to New York City. It buys out a lot of local delivery companies, or it just kind of takes over their contracts with many of the big department stores, and that’s what kind of UPS was known for, for the first quarter-century of its existence.

What happens really is World War II, and you have a global war in which the major powers of the world launch a war to see who’s going to be the dominant power, which necessarily requires production, the moving of goods and the moving of armies all across the globe.

This produces a kind of revolution in thinking about the role of distribution and shipping for warfare. You saw some of this during World War I, but it’s on a much grander scale in World War II and afterwards. Much of this new thinking was brought into the business world.

This didn’t all happen overnight. If you go back and look at what the United States looked like at the end of World War II, its ports were pretty backward. There was no GPS, there was no barcode, there were no computers. There was no satellite information system.

Containerization was just a thought in some people’s heads. There was no auto industry on that scale that we saw later; after the war, trucking exploded. So here are parts of the puzzle working their way towards a common goal, but in a very jerky fashion.

It’s really in the 1960s and 1970s that some of the technological changes; the growth of an interstate highway system, this new level of air and ocean transport, create the possibility of reorganizing production on both a global scale, and quickening the pace of getting goods from the plants and manufacturing facilities into the hands of consumers.

In a lot of ways, Walmart becomes the model for that. Sam Walton took what was a fairly small regional company and turned it into a massive American-style, corporate entity, cutting out the middlemen so that he could sell products as cheaply as possible.

He became very successful at that. That was later taken over and extended on a different level by Amazon. During this time, UPS goes from being a boutique delivery service to slowly but surely becoming a 48 and then 50-state corporation. 

Because remember, one of the things about the New Deal is that it tightly regulated the trucking industry for a period of 40 years. It, microscopically, organized the industry which created both stable jobs, and it was something that the Teamsters Union relied upon. It created a stable industry and allowed them to grow, to be really the dominant force in the trucking industry.

They had 2 million members about the late sixties, early seventies. Most trucking companies were tiny compared to it. But underneath this surface, there are the things you see, the things you partially see, and the much bigger historical forces that you don’t really see in the background, but are animating something else that’s gonna produce a big change.

During the 1960s, the Teamsters reached the height of their bargaining power under Hoffa, with the National Master Freight Agreement. And UPS is still a growing company, but on the edge of the freight industry, underneath all that, there are these big changes going on, that the union’s partially aware of, but partially ignoring at the same time.

During the course of the 1970s and 1980s,  there’s a big push to deregulate the trucking  industry. UPS had become known as the quiet giant of the freight industry. It explodes from the late sixties, employing about a hundred thousand people to by late 1990s employing nearly 200,000.

One of the things that makes UPS different is that it had a fairly uniform system of what it took for packages, what were called parcel post, but they had a national system for bringing them in, distributing them, and so forth.

It was a very streamlined, very focused business, and they did it very well. They basically created a situation where they were one of the major benefactors from deregulation of the industry. At the same time, what made them an anomaly is that they were a union company.

Most of the modern big transport and  retail companies are non-union. The older logistics, industry, rail, are union. They’re highly regulated, but they’re union. Most of the current modern ones are non-union. So UPS inhabits this kind of odd space of both being one of the great benefactors of deregulation and being a unionized company at the same time.

What  this means politically is that within the Teamsters, they’ve become a kind of union within a union. Right now they make up anywhere from 330,000 to 350,000 members, depending on seasonal fluctuation.The Teamsters have about 1.2 million members, so over a quarter of the union are UPSers. Even though the Teamsters have national contracts with other trucking companies, there’s nothing that compares to the size and importance of UPS. 

So they’ve become heavily dependent on it and through most of their recent history, unfortunately, the Teamsters have had a cooperative relationship with the company. In exchange for concessions—for example, the difference between the pay for part-timers and full-timers; where part-timers still make up nearly two-thirds of the workforce—they’ve helped subsidize the massive growth of UPS, at every stage of the way during its modern history. From the 1980s onward, really quite at the expense particularly of part-timers in terms of wages, but also in terms of the working conditions that whether you’re full-time or or part-time are quite horrendous and exploitative.

During this time, we’ve seen this kind of retail revolution. We’ve seen a logistics revolution. We’ve also seen something of a revolution in labor relations where the Teamsters have both declined in terms of their presence overall, but have grown more dependent on UPS to be a viable national union, which creates all sorts of contradictory pressures.

Teddy Ostrow: That’s a really good point, and I want to dig more into the Teamsters in a few minutes. But first, you sort of began to mention this: what has the pandemic done for UPS? I think also this may be a good time to bring in the question of how Amazon fits into this landscape.

Joe Allen: I think one thing that the pandemic did was accelerate trends that already existed. On a global scale, it accelerated the rivalry between the United States and China in particular. 

Since 2018, and this obviously accelerated during the pandemic, both Amazon and UPS—and I’m sure this is true of FedEx—their workforces have substantially expanded.

During the first year of the pandemic especially, but I think it’s been true overall, more people were at home and they had to order online for the things that they would have previously gone to local shops or department stores or supermarkets to get.

Even companies like Walmart, Target and others, who still have a substantial brick and mortar presence, had to shift towards making more and more home deliveries of their products. I think since 2018, UPS claims that they’ve put on 50,000 more workers, most of whom are Teamster members. At the same time, we should recognize that at both Amazon and UPS, the turnover rate, particularly among part-timers, is incredible. There are some estimates that if you look at it annually, there’s something like a 90% turnover rate. As somebody who was around the 1997 strike and has written about it, when the union achieved a hands-down victory, creating 10,000 new jobs out of existing part-time positions…if you were to tell me 25 years later, that the model for the logistics industry was a 90% annual turnover rate, I wouldn’t have believed you. And yet they’ve been able to do that and sustain that model for all these years, and that creates real organizing problems, whether it’s Amazon or organizing an existing union workforce like UPS. If you have so many people who leave on such a constant basis, that creates a very difficult situation for organizing. 

Teddy Ostrow: I think in general when we think about logistics, you get the sense that these processes of moving things around the world are almost automated. You know, everything’s on a belt sorted by machines, but people or labor, does have an enormous role in this that you’ve touched on. How does labor fit into this process that you’ve been describing over the last hundred years, and specifically how do the Teamsters fit into it?

Joe Allen: I think in general, people who see themselves as socialists or labor activists shouldn’t fear technology because technology should always be used to do away with the most dangerous of work, to do away with drudgery, things that could lead to illness or injury.

That’s the promise of technology. Of course, the problem is that in the hands of the capitalist class, it’s used for increasing exploitation and surveillance. For most people, every time you hear technology, it either means I’m gonna lose a job or I’m just gonna get screwed over more and more.

When you look back over the last 100 years, there’s a couple of things to keep in mind. While technology can be devastating in particular fields like the mining industry, much of the talk of technology just wiping out whole workforces has really proven not to be true.

Overall what we see is that workers are more important than ever before. It’s not really about technology replacing workers, it’s about technology being used to exploit people more and more. Whether you are a UPS driver or a package car driver doing a pickup, it goes into a warehouse where they have to be unloaded by people unloading trucks to people who are sorters, who are then sorting them into trailers for another hub. Or they’re being sorted to be loaded onto trucks, which then have to be driven out by drivers who have to hand them to businesses and workers.

So, workers are still absolutely essential to the system. One of the things that UPS tries to do is to try to introduce as much technology as possible to minimize the amount of hands on packages. When you look back to 1968, UPS delivered more parcel posts in the post office. They had about a hundred thousand employees at the time when Ron Carey led the strike against UPS. In 1997, 185,000 Teamsters went out on strike.

Here we are, 25 years later, and despite all the talk of technology replacing workers, there are something like 330,000 to 350,000 workers who are members of the Teamster Union at UPS. The power of workers to shut down UPS has been demonstrated, though it has been muted and underused since. We’ll see come July 31st whether it’s used for the first time in the modern history of UPS.

Teddy Ostrow: Well, let’s bring the conversation more specifically now to the UPS Teamsters contract campaign. I’ve asked a couple times on this show, what a teamsters strike would mean for the broader labor movement, and I’d like to ask you the same question, but perhaps you can emphasize why it’s so significant that this is happening or could happen in the logistics industry.

What are the potentials we’re seeing here? 

Joe Allen: The national contract between the Teamsters and UPS doesn’t end until July 31st. We won’t really know until mid July where things are at, but I think there’s obviously a different model that UPS wants to impose on its workforce, that the teams rightly are resisting.

People call it Uberization, or the digitizing of the UPS workforce, they want a much more casual workforce. Something that doesn’t have what the heart and guts of the union are, particularly package car drivers who have fairly well defined wages and benefits and working schedules.

The Hoffa administration last time around made a series of concessions about creating a lower tier full-time package car driver and several other concessions about personal vehicles and contingent workers during some parts of the year that rightly inflamed a lot of people, which is why the contract was voted down, but then undemocratically imposed on the membership.

UPS is a very important corporation because on a daily basis, it moves something like two to 3% of the global economy. FedEx does a similar amount. So these are really important corporations.

UPS was a trendsetter in labor relations, both in terms of its repressive culture and the concessions wrangled out of the Teamsters in the early 1980. UPS today is so ubiquitous, it’s hard to think of a country without it.

It is just present and necessary for so many people. Under Hoffa, you went from kind of a high point of the Teamsters in 1997, where Ron Carey was the leader of this reform movement, this big strike that seemed to herald the rebirth of the American labor movement, and then found himself witch hunted out of the union. In this almost semi-coup, the federal government helped bring Jim Hoffa to power; the Teamsters then sunk back into this very predictable and languishing position for two decades. So the last couple of years, one of the things the pandemic produced was that these workers were absolutely essential, particularly industrial workers and truck drivers.

We’ve seen something of a strike wave in industrial America starting about two years ago. The Old Guard leadership split and Sean O’Brien and Fred Zuckerman came to power with a promise of a change in the fundamental direction of the Teamsters. The Teamsters are both important in terms of what they are as a union, but they’re also kind of culturally important.

Sometimes not for the best of reasons, in terms of Hollywood movies and films, but everybody knows the Teamsters. It’s hard to find someone who goes, I don’t know anything about the Teamsters. I mean, everybody knows something about the Teamsters.

So a strike at UPS not only has the potential of putting into motion something like 340,000 workers, and shutting down a very important corporation. It has the possibility of elevating the struggles that we’ve already begun to see throughout the industrial sector of the economy and some of the new organizing and the possibility of  injecting that spirit and organizing into  the larger non-union sector of the logistics industry, most notably Amazon.

We shouldn’t forget about FedEx and a lot of the big major trucking companies. I think people tend to be attracted not necessarily to the specifics of any contract settlement, because, you know, companies can be very different in terms of job classifications and pay; what they’re attracted to is a sense that there’s a union that’s fighting and moving forward.

So if we do see the type of struggle that could take place—and I still lean towards there being a strike right now—it could capture the imagination of people who want a union, but want to join something that they feel is fighting for them.

Teddy Ostrow: I think we all agree that a Teamster victory at UPS would be pretty huge. But looking beyond the Teamsters, what do you think is needed? To expand organizing and to build power in that industry, including on the rails and the air, on the docks, just across logistics.

Joe Allen: I think one of the things about the rail contract dispute last fall is that, for the first time, at least in my political life, discussions of the conditions in the rail industry were national news for several months.

That was extraordinary in and of itself. Part of that was because the working conditions of rail workers were shocking to most people because if there’s one industry in the country that’s had unions for over a hundred years, it’s the rail industry. I myself found it shocking.

But it also goes to show you that the labor laws that existed in this country, specifically the Railway Labor Act, but this is also true of Taft Hartley, which governs most private sector, is highly repressive. And really, it’s used to squash the fights that we need to make things better.

But we’re not gonna get real labor law reform until we have millions of more workers who are not only in unions, but are also prepared to fight for that type of political agenda. I keep coming back to some of the lessons from the 1930s and the 1970s. There’s always gonna be sentiment to fight, and we’ll always see workers prepared to kind of take action to do stuff, but we also need people with radical politics who have a broader vision of how to shape the labor movement and move it forward and to overcome a lot of the divisions that exist within the movement.

One of the reasons why UPS has been so successful over the decades, has been able to push through a lot of these concessions, is not just having a compliant leadership, but having a highly divided membership, There are few workplaces, particularly a unionized workplace like UPS, where you have on one hand extremely, highly paid feeder drivers, the best working conditions you can get as a truck driver, through a myriad of jobs down to the lowliest part-timer, unloading trucks in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere. Trying to bring that kind of highly divided, very disparate workforce where issues of race and gender and immigration status intersect, and weave through all these issues into one group of people who can fight around common demands is not an easy task. It was achieved in 1997. We need it to happen now, but that just reflects the broader divisions that exist within the American working class in any major industry, in any major trucking or transport company.

We need people who have a political vision of that. A labor movement is not just about wages and working conditions, but it’s also about fighting racism and sexism and fighting against anti-immigrant bigotry or transphobia. Those are the things that divide, or potentially can unite workers on a daily basis in a workplace. That lack of imagination, that lack of politics is still kind of marginal to the labor movement, and I think that’s one of the things that has to change.

*

Teddy Ostrow: What didn’t make it into this episode, but I think is important to note, is that there are complicated and contradictory relationships between all of the logistics giants mentioned in this episode. For example, UPS and Amazon both rely heavily on the US Postal Service to deliver a large number of their products, in many ways exploiting a beloved public institution that has suffered political attack over the decades, which has created the opportunity for these private companies to expand so rapidly.

Meanwhile, Amazon is UPS’s biggest customer. UPS delivers a huge portion of Amazon parcels, even as it fears the exponential growth of Amazon’s own delivery infrastructure. So while there’s competition between these companies, Joe emphasized that there’s also significant cooperation.

Because of that, workers at each stop on the supply chain, at each logistics pillar, have remarkable leverage against the whole system. The power of these workers is immense and right now we are watching how the Teamsters will choose to wield it.

The podcast was edited by Teddy Ostrow

It was produced by NYGP and Ruby Walsh.

Music is by Casey Gallagher.

The cover art was done by Devlin Claro Resetar.

Negotiations on the national labor contract at UPS have begun. And while CEO Carol Tomé has insisted that the company and the union are “not far apart on the issues,” their behavior at the bargaining table suggests otherwise.

In bargaining sessions for regional contracts across the country, UPS is sometimes just not showing up, they’re demanding concessions from the union, and they’re playing dirty to get what they want — a workforce that looks more like the mostly non-union Amazon, FedEx, or Uber. That’s why the Teamsters have taken negotiations outside the bargaining room and into the workplace, with rallies, parking lot meetings, and action trainings. Meanwhile, workers say UPS is fighting back with layoffs and other forms of intimidation.

In this episode, we bring you inside and outside of the bargaining room. On the inside, we speak with two of the most militant Teamster principal officers in the union, Richard Hooker Jr. and Vinnie Perrone. On the outside, you’ll hear from Teamsters general president Sean O’Brien, as well as from rank and filers at rallies in Massachusetts, California, Rhode Island, and New York.

The clock is ticking to August 1.

Additional links/info below…

• Support the show at Patreon.com/upsurgepod.
• Follow us on Twitter @upsurgepod, Facebook, The Upsurge, and YouTube @upsurgepod.

Special thanks to José Francisco Negrete, Corey Levensque, Rand Wilson, Teamsters for a Democratic Union and Teamsters Local 251 for providing audio clips for this episode.

Hosted by Teddy Ostrow

Edited by Teddy Ostrow

Produced by NYGP & Ruby Walsh, in partnership with In These Times & The Real News Network

Music by Casey Gallagher

Cover art by Devlin Claro Resetar

Transcript

The transcript of this podcast will be made available as soon as possible.